The dangers of Porn

[mattman]

A couple of days ago you wrote about the dangers of porn addiction in your daily newsletter. I read it, an I even read some of the content from the link, porn-free.org. I have to be honest John, I thought what was writtne, both on the link, an in your news letter was pretty cool. Sex is everywhere in todays society. It's nice to see someone else with some old school values, one more reason why I like this site.

Take care,

Matt

[John Peterson]

Hey Matt,

Thank You. Believe me, I'm no prude. And sex under the right circumstances is absolutely wonderful and essential. After all, none of us would be reading this if it weren't for S-E-X. Not only that but GOD created it and blessed it, and said that under the right circumstances it was GOOD. So in and of itself sex is far from bad, it in fact, is very, very G-O-O-D!


However, when we have pornographers intentionally appealing to a man's lower nature (and let's be real, any man could fall into that trap if he let himself )and exploiting emotionally damaged, young, stupid women that think they will become a "Star" and have them perform every form of degrading sex act imaginable, you then have S-C-U-M degrading one of God's greatest gifts to humanity and turning a gift from God into a party for degenerates.

But let's also be real about something else, the difference between a man and lower life forms is that God has given man the ability to choose to do things appropriately. A man can choose to do what is right and loving and from his higher nature without hurting or degrading anyone else. But even worse, pornography that totally appeals to a man's lower nature, sets up expectations that can and will cause friction between and man and his wife if he begins to expect her to do what he sees drugged up porn stars doing. Anyway, it's important that we MEN take control our thoughts and desires and that they do not control us. If they do, they can destroy us and ruin the wonderful, fulfilling life we could have had as history has shown us countless times when lust controls the man.

Once again, thank you Matt. I'm glad at least one man understood what I was trying to accomplish.

---John Peterson

[Greg Newton]

Anyway, it's important that we MEN take control our thoughts and desires and that they do not control us. If they do, they can destroy us and ruin the wonderful, fulfilling life we could have had as history has shown us countless times when lust controls the man.


Self control doesn't just involve the physical, but the mental as well. I for one refuse to be the slave of what I am bombarded with on TV and through the print media. I have no problem in turning my head, and I have no problem turning my head from a woman who is provocatively dressed in a way that would appeal to our more purient nature.

I also want to point out I am no prude. I am blessed to be married to an extremely beautiful woman who I share an extremely passionate and active love life with. If I said more, you'd think I was lying. But, I can definitely say that one of the benefits of Transformetric exercise has been an increased libido on both our parts. That desire and passion is bound in a covenant with only one person, and that is the only person I am to look at in that way and that person is the one I am married to.

And if I sound strident about this - I hate it for anyone who takes offense. This is something I feel very strongly about.

[Daniel]

Im not trying to start a flame war and I realize we all have different opinions, but I just want to say I am a fan of pornography and see nothing wrong with it all. As humans we are sexual beings and porn is just another form of entertainment for adults to express the way they feel, as long as no one is getting hurt I have no problems with the porn industry.

[HE LIVES IN MY HEART]

Amen, Greg.

I'm with you. After 20 years of marriage I can honestly say that I'm more in love with my wife than I have ever been and I am more attracted to her than ever. Next to finding Jesus Christ 25 years ago she is the best thing that has ever happened to me.

There's nothing like being married and being devoted to one woman. I highly recommend it!

The scripture in Proverbs chapter 5 is indeed true:

.. And rejoice in the wife of your youth.
As a loving hind and a graceful doe,
Let her breasts satisfy you at all times;
Be exhilarated always with her love.

[John Peterson]

Hey Greg and He Lives In My Heart,


Gentlemen, I could not agree more. I fall more in love with my Denise every day.

Daniel, I can appreciate that you would share your opinion in an honest and forthright fashion without being antagonistic to those of us that are Bible believing Christians and ministers of the Gospel and who do see great harm in porn because of the irreparable damage that it causes in the lives of so many people. Marriages have been destroyed, children have been abused, and peoples lives ruined as a direct result of their involvement in and addiction to porn.

When you have a chance, please go to my friend Paul Hill's web-site at the following address: www.porn-free.org/. When there, please read the story of Shelley Lubin a former adult porn star who is now a minister of the Gospel. She tells her story of what it was actually like to be a porn star. Read it, and it may change your perspective about it not hurting anyone.

Believe me, an addiction to pornography can become every bit as destructive as alcohol or drug addiction. In fact, a couple of years ago my friend Paul Hill (the founder of Porn-free. org ) recommended that I do a web-search for 'dead porn stars'. I recommend that you do so too. If you do, you will soon discover that a huge number of those people ended up taking their own lives or dieing of AIDS. I mention this for just one reason, if illicit sex brought peace, happiness, contentment, purpose and fulfillment to one's life then surely those people would be among the happiest. But the sad truth is that they are among the most miserable. Anyway, it's something to think about my friend. You'll be in my prayers Daniel. And once again, I admire your honesty.

---John Peterson

[ben alexander]

Very interesting website - whilst I disagreed with some parts of it, the basic advice was excellent. I found Shelley Lubin's testimony very interesting.

Daniel, you might find this interesting...

Along similar lines, I'm reminded of a movie I saw about the day-to-day life of pornstar Ron Jeremy, popularly known as the Hedgehog.

Ron is something of a hero to many men, as he appears to live the life any red-blooded male would want to lead. Despite his age, average looks and expanding waistline, he travels the world making x-rated films with beautiful women, and earning lots of money from personal appearances, endorsements and so on/

Yet the film revealed just how lonely and bored Ron was with his life. Endless HIV tests, constantly having to play the role of party animal, and the loss of close Porn Industry friends, like John Holmes, through drugs or Aids, was clearly taking its toll.

He longed for a long term relationship and a family, but no ordinary woman wanted to be with him because of his past. He is very intelligent, having a Master's Degree in Special Education, and resents having to play the fat, stupid "butt of all jokes" character that made him a star.

It appears to me that he wishes that he never entered the business; one that he only entered to put food on the table when he was very poor.

As a young, single man, I enjoy socialising and dating as much as the next man. Many years ago, a Pastor came to give a lecture on relationships at our school. He gave us much sensible advice, but one item stuck in my mind.

He gave us a quote from 1 Corinthians 13 (reproduced below), about love. Then he said "Replace the word 'love' with the name of your partner, in this verse. If they do not match up to the values in the verse, then you are setting yourself up for misery, heartache, and exploitation."

Regardless of religious orientation, or whether you believe in a god, this is solid advice. To this day, I still follow it, when embarking on a relationship.

The Way of Love

13:

4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; [2] 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I hope the members of Bronzebow find this useful!

Ben

[John Peterson]

Hey Ben,

Thank You for a superb post. I really appreciate it because it deals with the issue from a very practical human perspective. Especially in terms of what does it do to the totality of one's life? Bottom line: It ain't glamorous.

Now I want to address something else that was addressed to me in a private e-mail today. So here goes, YES, I am well aware of the fact that there are people out there on the internet stating that I am trying to make everyone believe and follow my religious and spiritual viewpoints. They accuse me of having a "Cult". So let me address this issue head on. THAT'S A DAMN LIE! And believe me friends DAMN is the right and appropriate word in this instance. I have never once tried to force my religious viewpoint on anyone. The fact that I am a Licensed and Ordained Minister of the Gospel is something that I am very proud of. But I have never once used God's Word to beat anyone into Spiritual submission. In fact, I abhor anyone, and I do mean anyone, that would ever do such a thing.

For me personally, my Christian faith has given me a foundation for living and a moral compass that always points 'True North". In the truest sense of the word it has saved me. Believe me, not one man here can imagine how wild I was in my 20's. Back then, if there was anything I thought about doing, I DID IT! It was through a near death experience at age 28 that The Lord saved me from Hell and set me on a new path.

Truth to tell, I don't want any of you to end up in Hell, so for that reason I don't want to ever say or do anything that would push any one of you my friends away from the Gospel by coming across like some fanatical religious jerk. WHY AM I SAYING THAT? Because that is exactly what happened to me. Those people literally drove me away from any desire to serve God and truth to tell, I'm convinced I became a whole wilder as a very young man as a result of them using the Bible as a weapon to beat me into Spiritual submission. Bottom line: Whether any of you believe in Jesus Christ or not, I want you to know that I'm glad you're here. I pray for you but I will never shove my Christian faith down anyone's throat. Not now and Not Ever. Anyone that says that I do is a liar.

---John Peterson

[blackbelt]

I don't have any problem with porn myself. And, by that I mean I don't use it in any way, nor do I condone it.

But, more out of curiosity than anything else, I have tried to check out the referenced testimonial by Shelley Lubin, and can't seem to find it.

Can someone kindly direct me?

[John Peterson]

Hey Black Belt,

Go Here: www.porn-free.org/

Once there, on the home page there is a grouping of articles at the lower right. The first one says, "The Truth Behind the Fantasy". that is the one to 'click' on. After you have read it, please do me a favor by letting the rest of our friends know what you think of it. Thanks Black Belt.

---John Peterson

[blackbelt]

Thanks John.

I guess I didn't find it before because I was looking for her name, and didn’t click around enough.

Now that I have read it, I’m not sure what to say, other than WOW!!!!

I always thought those girls enjoyed doing that kind of work. I’m sure many guys, particularly those who watch that stuff, think the same. However, I’ve also had a suspicion that they had a low self-image and didn’t think they could make enough money “working” in any other way as well.

I would strongly recommend that anyone who has even the slightest notion that porn “doesn’t hurt” anyone, should read that.

And, while I’m sure there are exceptions to what Shelley wrote, in one form or another, exceptions are just that, exceptions. They are NOT the rule.

I’m no prude. I’ve done my share of what I now refer to as stupid “stuff”. But, at the very least it is now my belief that if you are allowing your mind to be filled with those images and thoughts, there is less room for more constructive and good images. Though I’m a Christian myself, let’s take that factor out for a minute. It would be hard to argue that if you’re filling your time, and as a result your mind, with that you’re NOT doing other things which would be MUCH more beneficial. And, that’s not just to yourself, but to the world around you.

Why spend your time with that stuff when you could be exercising or doing any number of other GOOD things? :)

[Greg Newton]

YES, I am well aware of the fact that there are people out there on the internet stating that I am trying to make everyone believe and follow my religious and spiritual viewpoints.

O.K., I'm a little lost on that one. How does a discussion about the dangers of pornography lead to an accusation of shoving religious and spiritual viewpoints down someone's throat?

Occasionally I hear the phrase "Turn or Burn," in reference to Christians, but I don't see John Peterson being like that. In fact, he and I share similar experiences in rejecting God because of growing up under that kind of influence, which was a misguided perversion of the true Gospel. The Gospel or Good News, as I see it, lays it out differently. If you want it, it is there on the table for the taking. If you don't, that is your decision to pass it by.

However, Christianity by it's nature is narrow with moral absolutes. This makes people uncomfortable because it touches on areas of their lives they don't want to let go of. That is why even on this forum that is dedicated to physical and mental health and is run by a dedicated Christian, any discussion of Christianity, the Bible, or the good new therein goes against the grain for a lot of people.

[Howard Wallace]

...He gave us a quote from 1 Corinthians 13 (reproduced below), about love. Then he said "Replace the word 'love' with the name of your partner, in this verse. If they do not match up to the values in the verse, then you are setting yourself up for misery, heartache, and exploitation."

Regardless of religious orientation, or whether you believe in a god, this is solid advice. To this day, I still follow it, when embarking on a relationship.

The Way of Love

13:

4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; [2] 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I hope the members of Bronzebow find this useful!

Ben

One did.

Thanks Ben.

[Alan_OldStudent]

Here's another view from a morality-minded secular humanist who does not believe in religion or God.

One problem with porn is that the effect it has on so many of the actors and models. That little essay that John refers us to is an example of that, written by someone who works in the porn industry. Certainly, much porn is degrading and uses degradation, decadence, and vulgarity as erotic devices, appealing to a darker side of the consumer of porn.

Should porn be dealt with by law or by education?

Is there a difference between porn and erotic art? Is porn inherently exploitative of women? Can it serve any good purpose at all? What about erotic novels or erotica designed for women? Is the Playboy centerfold in the same category as a snuff film or images of bestiality or rape?

I don't claim to have the answers to most of these questions. The older I get, the more questions I seem to have and the fewer answers I seem to have.

As far as John's Christianity goes, he certainly does not ram it down anyone's throat and has always made me feel welcome. For my part, I have always treated him and his religion with respect, and he has always been respectful towards me and my world outlook. He told me once he prays for me, and I accept that as his expression of good will towards me.

I feel genuine liking for John and look up to him as a physical culture teacher, leader, and human being.

Intelligent people of good will can and do disagree about these matters, and human solidarity requires us to deal with each other in a respectful and honest manner. We all can take what we can of value from here, contribute what value we can in return, and avoid getting too worked up over whatever differences we may have with others.

Regards,

Alan

[Daniel]

I don't class myself as religious, I prefer to call myself spiritual. I can't see why a Christian or person of any other religion cannot enjoy pornography, I really feel strongly about this because not everyone who enjoys watching porn is some sort of weirdo or sexual deviate who needs help. Human sexuality should not be repressed, because when it is repressed it manifest itself distorted ways, look at all the cases of abuse in the Catholic Church by priests. The point Im trying to make is men have lusts and desires that need to be fulfilled and when there not fulfilled they manifest in some other distorted negative way that is unhealthy and potentially harmful.

[ben alexander]

I was initially reluctant to put forward my views of this subject, preferring to remain impartial and providing a neutral outlook.

Like Daniel, I don't believe that everyone who views pornography is a deviant, or will become addicted to degrading or illegal material. Between two sensible, consenting adults, the use of erotic material can be part of their intimate life.

However, I feel I must address a point that hasn't been raised.

The easy access to all sorts of pornography (legal and illegal) has created a lot of problems. I can remember that only a few years ago, buying soft core "glamour" magazines was about the limit of what you could get. Hard-core and specialist tastes were only available from private suppliers and very expensive.

With the rise of the internet, though, it has become very easy to not only find such material, but very cheaply, too. Net porn involves no embarrassing transactions with shopkeepers, many of the images are free, and you can simply turn off your computer afterwards and erase all the evidence.
There are also huge and obvious differences between Net porn and old-fashioned porn. Internet sex is so easily and quickly available once you decide to access it, that there is no time for guilt to kick in before consumption. And, of course, if one becomes bored with one particular theme, there are always newer and more shocking images. Whatever you think it possible to conceive of sexually — and beyond — is on the Net.

Then, there is the very nature of male sexuality, itself. We are, by nature, curious, and the insatiableness of male sexuality can be so easily satisfied by the Net.

Most male sexuality is designed by evolution to be an unscratchable itch; a desperate, unsatisfiable urge. It is like hunger: just as you aren´t meant to wake up one day and say, ‘Oh, I´ve had 6,000 meals, I think I´ll stop eating now, ´ so men aren´t meant to wake up one day and think, ‘Oh, I´ve ogled 500 girls, I think I´ll stop staring at them now.´ A further problem with this is that when a man starts to explore his more deviant sexual fantasies, he can find himself in an addictive spiral, pursuing ever stranger forms of sex.

Male sexuality means has to be curtailed in order for a man to function in normal, civilised society. And in the past it was. Women were chaste and/or hard to get; pornography was rubbish, embarrassing and costly. But then along came the Net, which revolutionised things.

To men, the Internet said, ‘Hey, lads, this is different, now you can have as much sexual stimulation as you want; now you can see as many naked bodies as you like.´ And men, of course, have not attained the ability to resist this kind of temptation.

In the 21st century, we are not encouraged to resist desire, either. Women without money are told to give in to their acquisitive urges and buy on credit. Advertising everywhere tempts already obese children to scoff another family-sized bucket of fried kitchen.

It is the same with sex: we´re taught, through magazines and television, that it is almost unhealthy not to explore every kink in our sexuality for fear of being repressed. And so we get the problem with Net porn: marry the infinite porn resources of the Net to the endlessness of male sexual desire, underpin it with consumer culture, and men can end up just as addicted to sexual stimulation as they could be to drugs, alcohol, or any other "addiction".

Of course, the time when we are most inquisitive about sex, is when we're in our teens. Any young person can safely access pornographic material in the privacy of their own bedrooms, without fear of discovery. Whilst in many cases this is enough to satisfy curiosity and isn't repeated often, to some this becomes a frequent event.

The young person, inexperienced and immature mentally, may not realise that the images and scenarios that he / she sees online, are the exception, rather than the rule. Pornography is fantasy - in real life, the sexual acts and scenarios portrayed may be unpleasant, dull, or very disappointing. Porn does not deal with the emotional side of sexuality; it only deals with the physical.

Sadly, this is not explained to young people. Instead, young men are lead to believe that all women are sexually available, promiscuous and eager to cheat with anyone. Young women are lead to believe that sexual experience with many partners is normal and to have some degree of self-restraint is unhealthy.

Of course, when reality slaps you firmly in the face, the results are devastating. Men, unable to fathom why reality does not match up to fantasy, may become aggressive, believing "She'd have sex with anyone - why not me!".They may become suspicious about their partners, and believe that, given enough alcohol and encouragement, their girlfriends will indulge in sex with strangers.

Or, the men become addicted to promiscuous sex, themselves. In recent years, the cult of "Pick-up" has grown exponentially, with so-called gurus offering courses and books promising to give the reader the techniques to live a porn star lifestyle.

Having the social skills and confidence to approach and attract women is, of course, a worthwhile goal for self-improvement. But the Pick-up Artists' secret techniques (largely tips on grooming and how to have conversations with people, plus a healthy dollop of pseudo-science), treat women as mere objects to be beaten by the words and actions of the user. Men are positively encouraged to go out every night and try and seduce a woman. It has been argued, sometimes by the gurus themselves, that these methods actually cause the man to become a misogynist.

In conclusion - we all have to take responsibilty for our actions. If you choose to view pornography, enjoy it as fantasy, but be aware of when the lines start to blur and you start believing the fantasy. Recognise that a sex-life can be a wonderful thing...but not to mistake a sex-life for having a life!

To quote Will Chamberlain, a notoriously promiscious celebrity (who, incidently, died alone!)

"Having a thousand different ladies is pretty cool, I have learned in my life I've found out that having one woman a thousand different times is much more satisfying."

Ben

[John Peterson]

Hey Friends,


This thread is a perfect example of how possible it truly is for kind hearted people coming from opposite ends of the discussion spectrum to openly interact with each other. In fact, it has been one of the best discussions on a very controversial topic that I have ever read. I especially appreciate how each person has been so respectful in dealing with this controversial issue. Strength and Honor to each of you.

And Ben Alexander, that has got to be the best non-religion based essay dealing with the realities of porn addiction that I have ever read. Thank You.


---John Peterson

[monty]

Hey all,

The problem with porn is it leaves an image in your brain. Our minds think in images or pictures. For example picture baseball. Some people think of a bat, some a glove, others a certain player. It was an image.
Thats why TV or pictures can have such an impact.

How bout watching TV, there are shows that show other people killing or hitting someone, or in another word sinning, and we watch that, I feel this can be just as impactful as watching porn. Mnay experts think that video games have made young men more violent or aggresive due to the iamge that they are watching.

Porn can change your perspective in how you think about women, thinking that they are an object instead of a person. I know even without porn this is a challenge for some men due to the way we are wired.
Just my thoughts.

Monty

[John Peterson]

Great insights Monty,

I read a report about the 'Columbine High School Killers.' To a person they all played violent video games'. Coincidence? I don't think so. They were programed without even knowing it.

And I agree with you completely about imagery. We think in images. And how those images are portrayed is what conditions our thinking.

Even so called 'mainstream television' trivializes sexuality, violence, and especially consequences. The biggest problem that so many kids growing up today face (in my opinion) is that there are no clear cut guidelines between what is right and what is wrong. Yet, in spite of this, I am amazed at how many really great kids there are. I guess it's a perfect example of the Grace of God at work.


---John Peterson

[JoeJustice]

I read a report about the 'Columbine High School Killers.' To a person they all played violent video games'. Coincidence? I don't think so. They were programed without even knowing it.


I gotta throw a flag on that, John! I played those exact same games as Klebold and Harris and so did all of my friends. Klebold and Harris would be my ages if they weren't in fact suicidally insane and deranged individuals. If they were programmed by those games why isn't there a mass killing like that every day? Most of your famous serial killers were around in the 1970's, so what games were they playing? What about all of those postal employee killings of the 80's? What games did they play?

I bet if you look, those boys also all drank milk and read Spider-Man comics. Coincidence? No, that's what boys of my generation did; same with playing video games.

I think if you want to find out what went wrong with them, take a look at the parents. The had two distinct parents while lots and lots of kids played those exact same games. So which one do you think had a greater influence? Mental chemical imbalance surly played a profound role as well.

Alright, I got that little rant off my chest. I don't mean any disrespect, but that's on of my pet peeves. As a society, adults have a tenancy to blame things that are new. Dime novels and pulp magazines caused violence in the early 20th century, Comic books in the mid 20th century and now it's TV and video games. When the fact is, it's the PARENTS and/or MENTAL ILLNESS at fault.

-Joe

[John Peterson]

Hey Joe,

You exemplify what makes this forum so great. I appreciate that:highfive:. And of course you are right Joe. I did oversimplify. Example: I had also read that these same young people were on various anti-depressants. These chemicals obviously can and do alter one's perceptions of reality. After all, that is what they are prescribed to do. So maybe in combination with other factors such as playing violent video games over and over again, such people that are on chemicals that alter brain chemistry are more vulnerable than others. I really don't know, but it seems logical.

Bottom-line though. You make a good point Joe. I agree that playing video games in and of itself will not turn a person into a serial killer unless it activates a twisted element of their personality that was already present. Likewise, I don't believe for one moment that viewing porn would automatically turn a normal guy into a twisted rapist unless viewing a particular type of porn activated a twisted part of his own psychological make up that was already present. So I'm tracking with you there.

However, I still believe that what we see repeatedly and are exposed to on a consistent basis does have a profound effect on our behavior. If this were not true, advertisers would not be standing in line to get their ads aired during The Super Bowl. Point is: you better believe that what we expose ourselves to visually on a consistent basis has a profound impact on our Psyche. Why? Because it does.

Thanks for your post Joe, it allowed me to underscore what I really mean.

---John Peterson

[JoeJustice]

I agree John. I think different stimuli will trigger deviant behavior for sure! Ted Bundy said porn caused him to become a killer, but that's just plane silly. He was a killer already; he was a MONSTER! Maybe the exposure to porn "brought it out" or "trigger" it, but the man was insane from the very start!

Klebold and Harris were all kinds of messed up! They were drugged up, neglected and bullied with access to illegal guns ammunition. They were a perfect storm of carnage. Actually that's one of the things I worry about the most with my generation, there are so many kids my age that grew up on or are currently on some kind of mind altering prescription drug. Which is a little scary to me.

I guess I get worked up over this particular topic because Klebold and Harris's parents at one point tried to sue several video game manufactures for damages because they claimed the games made their boys crazy and they killed themselves!! Can you believe that?! If anyone is to blame other than the boys it would have to be their parents.

I'm with you 100% on the basic concept of "garbage in, garbage out."

-Joe

[monty]

Advertising in a nutshell:

You talk to yourself all day, is it positive or negative?
Repeat an idea 6 times, will change 63% of peoples minds.
Repeat an idea 17 times will change 98% of people’s minds.


Monty

[vegetus25]

Ben,

Thanks for the Corinthians idea. That really hits home w/ how much work I have to do to really love my wife the way she deserves.

Alan,

I don’t have all the answers either, but I asked a priest about the difference between porn and art. He gave the best answer I have ever heard to the question…intent.

Daniel,

I would refer you to the following website for information on why Christians would not enjoy pornography. I found it life changing.

http://www.giftfoundation.org/naked_without_shame.htm

A small percentage of priests (less than 1% of the total number of priests) molested children. If your idea were correct the number would be much higher.

Also, priests do not repress their sexuality by being celibate. Their sexuality is directed toward God and Heaven.

P.S. I don’t think you are a weirdo :)

John/Joe,

I do a lot of speaking on serial killers and the LINK. The one trait most serial killers have in common is animal abuse.

[Daniel]

I appreciate and except everyone has a difference of opinion on this topic, I just want to say you can still be a honest and kind hearted person and watch pornography, it doesn't make you a evil person.

[gbjj]

I appreciate and except everyone has a difference of opinion on this topic, I just want to say you can still be a honest and kind hearted person and watch pornography, it doesn't make you a evil person.

Hey Daniel,

Kind Hearted honest people can fall prey to a multitude of sins and do many things over the course of their lives, right and wrong. I don't think that really is the issue, wether or not your kindhearted, honest, or evil. The danger is what your doing to yourself by engaging in pornography, kind hearted, good intending or not.

It's always such a controversial thing whenever you ask a public group wether something is wrong or right, you'll always get a mixed bag when there is no common standard measuring stick.

As a christian the rights and wrong of pornography are set forth in God's word, if your not a christian then your values of right and wrong are based on your own standards, experiences (you make them up as you go i.e. Secular humanism, what is right for you may not be right for me etc...)

The main reason christians get up in arms about pornogrophy so much is due to it's pervasive nature and severe warnings. Sexual morality is not the same as other sins, it is a sin against your own body which is the temple of God. Paul has a lot to say about it in 1 Corinthians Chapter 6.

[Daniel]

I hear where your coming from, I guess none of this applies to me then as a non christian, I'll continue to live my life according to my own value system..

[John Peterson]

Hey Daniel,

Even though you are not a Christian, I admire your honesty and integrity in shooting straight with all of us about where you are coming from with regard to this issue. Who knows at some point you may change your mind about Christianity. In fact, I hope that happens but I'm also aware that Jesus himself stated, "No man comes unto me accept that the Father draw him." So the bottom line is that it won't happen unless it's God's timing. But you can't blame me for hoping that it does happen. Anyway, I want you to know that I appreciate your insights and participation on our forum. I hope to see you posting more often. .


---John Peterson

[Alan_OldStudent]

Hi Daniel,

Like you, I'm a non-Christian too, a nonbeliever. However, I found this site (http://www.christiansandsolosex.com/links/introduction.html), put up by someone who strikes me as being an evangelical Christian, to be very interesting.

The name of the site is Christians and Solo Sex (http://www.christiansandsolosex.com/links/introduction.html).

He talks about masturbation and eroticism and has a different viewpoint than many of his co-religionists. I found the site to be quite interesting.

Perhaps you'll find it interesting, too.

I'd be interested in hearing your opinion, as well as the opinions of some of our Christian brothers and sisters here at the forum.

Regards,

Alan

[gruntbrain]

Porn(fake) food will X - rate your health

[palomayombe]

I never understood why people spend so much time in something that lasts so little time.

[ben alexander]

Sorry to open up this thread again, but I've just read this in one of my health magazines. Its from a Psychosexual Therapist called Frances Emeleus. She was asked about pornography, and Internet Porn Addiction.

Basically, she argues that viewing porn, in small doses, is quite normal. There are times when location or opportunity are not there, and pornography is a safe release.

However, she says, real sex with a partner involves excitement, and complex feelings. Internet porn provises excitement, but not feelings. So subconsciously, you can start searching for something that goives you the feelings aspect. Sadly, you won't find it online. This can lead to repeated attempts to find what's missing, to the point of addiction.

Sums it up perfectly to me!

On a similar note, I do wonder, as many of us have done, about the effects of movie violence. Only recently I was viewing some classic horror movies from my youth, and I compared them to today's offerings.

The sort of violent and horror movies I used to watch were graphic, but seemed to be balanced out with humour, or were made so over-the-top that it became like a live-action cartoon.

For example, the Nightmare on Elm Street series were violent, and Freddy Krueger a horrible character. However, actor Robert Englund decided to play him for laughs, developing Freddy into a sardonic, wisecracking and flamboyant demon, rather than the sadistic mass-murderer of the first films. The black humour made the series work.

Likewise, in an Arnold movie, the big guy would dispatch the villians in a typicially violent display, but almost parodying the movie by making a witty wisecrack.

Even a brutal movie like "Silence of the Lambs" worked because the character of Hannibal Lector was so well played. He was charming, charismatic, incredibly intelligent, talented and well-cultured. Plus, he was played by a gifted actor - Anthony Hopkins. There's no way such a nigh-superhumanly smart serial killer could exist in the real world - hence the shock was diminished.

However, today's movies, like the abominable "Saw" series, have replaced the wit and humour with non-stop thrills and gore. Because the horror isn't balanced off with something like humour, you're never given a chance to "calm down" from the nasty stuff. Therefore, its easier to be affected by it.

Ben

[gbjj]

Interesting... so in small doses adultry is ok ???? ..it's ok though because it's consensual..right??

...Where do you draw the line.


The mere fact that this was posted shows that it is a question of whether or not it's right or wrong, and there will always be a way that a person can justify anything they do that deep down they know is wrong.

Respectfully
-J

[John Peterson]

Hey Ben,

You offer some valuable insights here. I once saw a documentary titled "The Rape of Nanking" which was a documentary about the Japanese atrocities committed in Nanking, China, just prior to WWII. in the late 1930's. This documentary was made from photos, eye witness reports, and films that were confiscated from the Japanese at the end of WWII and was the most pornographic thing that I have ever seen. It was easily the most horrific film I ever saw because it was real. It showed how grown men would rape 8 year old girls to death in addition to every other kind of perversion and atrocity one can imagine. For instance, using 12 year old boys for live bayonet practice while prolonging the agony as long as possible. Or, having beheading contests to see who could decapitate the most people in the least amount of time. Burning people alive or just torturing people to do death for the thrill of it because they could. Personally, when I saw that documentary, I became a believer in the reality of demonic possession. No other explanation can even remotely make sense.

I also think that by exposing ourselves to certain movies like 'SAW' and The Texas Chainsaw Massacre(which was based on a factual story) that people are inadvertently exposing themselves to the demonic. Believe me, I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this, but that's what I believe.

---John Peterson

[Aaron Hoot]

I believe that the problem with any of these things such as pornography, super violent games or movies is that they desensitize you. I still remember the first time as a young boy when I saw someone die on a tv show. Believe it or not it was a Kukla Fran and Ollie Show. This will show you how old I am. But anyway after I saw the man die on it I got sick at my stomach and never wanted to see anything like that again. Now I am disappointed if during a show all the bad guys aren't killed. If we are not careful with what we put before ourselves in a steady diet it will make us callous to whatever we are watching. For instance porn. Some people take that and on a steady diet believe that this is the first thing that you should look for in somebody is sex and not the person themselves. Even those of you who look at porn must admit there are varying degrees from soft to super hardcore. Some people who look at that all the time can't separate that from how they treat other people. I am a Christian and as some of you all might remember that I am a missionary down here in the Dominican Republic. The Lord has blessed my beautiful wife and I with nine children. My children and I like video games and movies. Sometimes we let it slip and allow it to go too far and watch something that we shouldn't. It is not because I think that my kids are going to go out and become an ax murderer or a rapist it is because I want them to always realize how terrible anger, revenge, lust and such can be if you don't have a realistic mind when you look at life.

Your friend,

Aaron

[blackbelt]

Basically, she argues that viewing porn, in small doses, is quite normal.


We have to remember, there IS a difference between something being “right” and something considered “ok” or “normal” by the medical community.

This is definitely an area where people will disagree. It really all depends on what you base your morals/values on. Those of us who refer to ourselves as Christians more frequently bring ourselves under the law of the Bible. That particular source is pretty clear on the matter of lust, which is where porn comes into play.

One of the most basic differences between homo-sapiens (man) and more primitive animals is that man has the ability to choose whether or not to act on their urges. You can almost say that animals can’t help themselves, even in the area of sex. That is simply not the case with humans. We can redirect our energies to other things if need be.

In my personal opinion, the more you look at porn, even if just for the “excitement” factor, the more likely those images and fantasies are going to fill your head. And, the more your head is filled with that subject matter, the less room there is for other more constructive material.

[GKC]

I think the point about the addiction/obsession with porn ,whether it be soft or hard ,is that it is idolatary.This is applcable if you believe in Jesus or not.
Idolatory is basically saying " I worship this"
If you were to say to someone "Do you worship porn" they would laugh and think that you were very strange.But that is exactly what it is-worship of some outside force that is manipulating people.
The internet is like many of mans inventions-either a useful slave or an intolerable master.For many it fuels their porn addiction and so is an intolerable master.

[gbjj]

...Sometimes we let it slip and allow it to go too far and watch something that we shouldn't.
Aaron

Very well said,

Something importantly noted here is the acknowledgement that your doing something wrong. We were created with a conscience and the ability to know right from wrong... (well actually after the fall... er..it gets kinda deep.....) in any case we all have built within in us the ability to know right from wrong, it's called the conscience. Now you can continually suppress those feeling that come up that you are doing something wrong.. if you continually do it, over and over again you (as the bible says) will sear your conscience.

Eventually you will wind up with a reprobate mind

[John Peterson]

Hey Guys,

gbjj has brought up something here that is really a very serious issue. That is to intentionally go against one's conscience by willfully sinning against God, mankind, or our own soul. AND PRETENDING THAT IT IS OK. This is a dangerous place to be spiritually because it stops us from going to the Lord in repentance and asking for forgiveness and then resolving to no longer be a victim to it. Obviously, I'm not only talking about pornography, but a wide range of negative and self defeating habits. NONE OF US CAN GET BEYOND AN ADDICTION IF WE DO NOT RECOGNIZE IT AS HARMFUL. If we don't see it as harmful, then there is no reason to break free of it.

As regards the issue of pornography, I actually had a pastor that receives my daily e-mails call me earlier about this and try to argue with me by saying there is nothing in scripture that prohibits pornography specifically. At first I thought that he was joking. But it turned out that he was not. I gave him several scriptures and reminded him that one of the Seven Mortal sins is L-U-S-T in all of it's manifestations. I also reminded him that pornography's only purpose is to fan the flames of L-U-S-T. He got angry with me and tried telling me that e-mails like the one I sent dealing with addiction to pornography were good for only one thing and that was making people feel guilty and as such was going to cost me my audience and that people think that I'm just a religious nut. I did the best I could to reason with him from a rational perspective but could get nowhere.

Bottomline: anything that clouds our better judgment and ultimately desensitizes us to what is right and good is something that we should avoid. And I'm not trying to guilt anyone. Instead, I want to help them choose personal freedom rather than enslavement.

---John Peterson

[Daniel]

This is why I can never call myself a Christian, why should LUST be looked down upon as a sin, its natural for us to have LUST and desires, how is suppressing these urges good, hiding from our true feelings is only going to hurt you more in the long run. Whatever time we have here on this earth we should enjoy, we should not be hiding from our true feelings by bottling up emotions which can negatively effect our health.
Im not judging anyone and fully respect all religions as they all have something to offer but I don't like it when people judge me for the way I live my life.

[Huskerdarren]

This is why I can never call myself a Christian, why should LUST be looked down upon as a sin, its natural for us to have LUST and desires, how is suppressing these urges good, hiding from our true feelings is only going to hurt you more in the long run. Whatever time we have here on this earth we should enjoy, we should not be hiding from our true feelings by bottling up emotions which can negatively effect our health.
Im not judging anyone and fully respect all religions as they all have something to offer but I don't like it when people judge me for the way I live my life.

I respectfully disagree wholeheartedly. Pornography is an engine that drives lust and ultimately destroys the user and the creators of it. It is a highly effective weapon of Satan, the ruler of this world, and it is used to harm people who are made in the image of and loved by God. It's a cosmic battle and we're caught in the middle. You see, God is the creator of sexuality. It is a wonderful gift when used as He has designed it, between a man and women in the context of marriage (God's design for a stable society and the procreation of life) But like all things, God has created boundaries around our lives for our well being and good. The topic of this thread was about the addictiveness of porn. I can attest to that from my own life. In my early 20's, I was in college and my roomates had several porn videos, I became addicted to it and watched them as much as I could. These images fed my lust for more and more and they were seared into my mind. I subconciously had an attitude that women are objects for my pleasure. It's all very disturbing. Praise be to God that he forgave me of my sin and cleansed me and I now have a strong aversion to it. I am still tempted by images in mainstream media, but I recognize it for what it is trying to do to me and I call on God for the strength to resist.

Back to the topic. I believe there are millions of men in our country and throughout the world who are unable to have a healthy relationship with a woman because they see ordinary women as not meeting to the image (read IDOL) of a beautfiul porn actress. I simply can't accept the idea that we are helpless to the power of lust and pornography. We are free to reject it or choose it, but we are not automatically enslaved to it. When sexuality is expressed as God designed it is beautful. When it is bastardized, the natural cause and effect is sexual disease (some leading to death), addiction to porography, the breakdown of relationships (how does your wife feel when you'd rather spend intimate time with a video instead of her) and in the more ugly aspects rape, child molestation, sexual mutiliation, perversion, and on and on and on. All of these are manifestations of sin, the disobedience to God's commands about sex.

John, I am praying for your pastor. He is in serious denial about the sin of porn and it's destructiveness and based on what I read, he may be enslaved to it in some way. I would urge you to meeti with one or more elders in your church and then request a meeting with the pastor to bring the topic into the light.

I leave everyone with this verse. “For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. . .” (Jeremiah 29:11).

[Daniel]

John,
I love this forum but Im not going to participate as often anymore unless its something related to training that I really want to share, the above post is too hardline for me and its over the top, too me what has been stated above is Christian Fundamentalism at its best, Your Pastor friend has the right approach in my opinion and more should take his stance on this topic.

Huskerdarren,
Its really funny to me how you refer to Porn as Satan's work, actually I would go as far as saying its ridiculous, have you ever researched the Hebrew meaning for Satan, it basically means somebody who opposes mainstream ideology, e.g. political, religious etc etc. We all have different opinions and I choose not to follow anything or anyone with blind faith, I make my own decisions and I am in control of my life, I take wisdom from all religious and spiritual traditions to better myself and become a better person, but because I choose to watch porn which you call the work of the Devil I am sinner and a bad person. Sorry my friend you are the person with problem with your self righteousness, who Judges people because they choose to enjoy porn, Im sure Jesus would not have judged anyone as harsh as you do.....

P.S , John Im really excited about the Pushup book

Daniel

[mattman]

hello everyone. When I started this threat a few days ago, I was only doing it to tell John that his morning email about porn was Spot-on. I had no idea so many people would respond and debate. I think that it is very cool how many of you have shared your own opinions.

Take care all,

Matt
P.S. John, no offense, we need the books.

[John Peterson]

Hello Jim,

This is exactly what the pastor I referred to earlier was challenging me to do. And the truth is that there are actually many, many scriptures that deal with the overall concept. Please turn to First Peter, Chapter Four and read the first eight verses. And of course Jim, I could point out many, many more scriptures, but the truth is that the Word of God is not, and was not, meant to be used as a weapon to beat people into spiritual submission. In fact, that was done to me when I was in my teens and that drove me away from the faith. So please understand that that is not my purpose. I am not out to condemn anyone but I do believe that there is a way to personal freedom as outlined in God's Word.


The reason I specifically chose First Peter Chapter Four and particularly the first eight verses is because it fits what my life once was and what it now is.


Believe me Jim, I am condemning no one. That is not my purpose. But I have had men contact me that have felt immense guilt and shame as a result of their preoccupation, addiction, or whatever one chooses to call it, and for them I am saying that it is absolutely possible to be free of negative influences that would otherwise destroy us.


---John Peterson

P.S. If you wish I could give a long list of scriptures dealing with the issue of being controlled by carnal lust. But I also want to say that you will not find any scripture that specifically pinpoints pornography and names it as such. The big issue in scripture is not being controlled by desires that cause us to hurt ourselves and other people. And that prevent us from fulfilling our divine destiny.

[Huskerdarren]

Daniel,
I don't see where I judged you in my reply. We're having a philosophical difference. I say porn is dangerous and you embrace it, then I built my case as to why I believe it to be so.

I guess I could be labeled as a Christian Fundamentalist. I do believe in a literal God, the bible, heaven, hell and Satan. The evidence for the God of the bible is real and it is overwhelming. Some of the bible is literal and some of it is allegorical and symbolic. I know the difference.

Satan is called the accuser in Hebrew and Aramaic. What I don't understand is why it upsets people when we debate topics like this that ultimately turn childish. I'm not upset if you think I'm a simpleton or whatever. I don't harbor any anomosity toward you personally. I simply choose to be an instrument for truth. If what I believe to be truth is absurd to you, why not just laugh it off? That doesn't bother me either. That's the distinction. I am not judging you, I am speaking out or shining light on what I believe is evil, and that is porn. That said, we can judge a tree by it's fruit. If you have cancer and I say you better get surgery ASAP or you will die, would you say how dare I judge this condition in your life? That is just your opinion. Of course not. Now I've delivered the message and you can accept or reject it.

John 3:19
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

[Alan_OldStudent]

Hi John and all,

Perhaps we need to look at this from another angle.

We all know there are people who consider themselves to be Christian who are just plain anti-sex. (I'm not referring to any of the Christians here). They view all kinds of things as pornographic that others would say are not pornographic.

For example, at one time, not too long ago, for a woman to expose her neck or her arms or legs was considered to be vulgar and titillating. Doing so was pretty much in the same category as a woman today getting on a public bus bare-chested. In fact, at the beginning of the 20th Century, in England and the United States, people in many circles refrained from talking about legs in mixed company. This went so far as to refer to the arms and legs of chairs as the "limbs." Even today, in some countries and cultures, women in public cover all of their body, including their hair.

However, many people, perhaps most, have very strong sex drives. This is especially true of young people and adolescents. As a consequence, at various times, teachers, doctors, and religious leaders spent a great deal of time and energy discouraging sexual activities, such as masturbation. Women were expected not to enjoy sex, and women who enjoyed sex were thought of as being degraded. Sex for women was "the duty." Many men did not have sex with their wives for pleasure. They went to prostitutes for that.

Schools, especially religious schools, spent a great deal of time and energy on discouraging sexual thoughts. I myself attended such a school in the 1950s. Adolescents were taught that having "impure thoughts" was a mortal sin. Masturbation was called "self-abuse."

Of course, this caused many problems because adolescent males and females think about sex quite frequently and have ferociously strong urges. The adolescent boy in this setting cannot help thinking there is something terribly wrong, terribly degraded, because he will have many spontaneous erections and will masturbate, and the hurricanes of hormones whip waves of feelings that can be terrifying, overwhelming, and accompanied by an unwelcome deliciousness. This makes the adolescent male awkward in social situations and anxious. Boys of my generation were taught that masturbation causes insanity and weakens the constitution, causes pimples, excessive sweating and body odor, insanity, and worse.

It is in this context that pornography as an industry grew during the 19th and 20th centuries, and it is still influenced by the past. Perhaps this is why so much pornography relies on degrading women, violence, child sex, animal sex, etc.

Many people who buy pornography use it as an aid to masturbation. The pornographers attempt to make the pornography more and more compelling. Because of the association of sexual desire with depravity in so much of our culture, pornography depicts depravity.

That's why, in an earlier post, I asked if others thought there was a difference between pornography and erotica. Is it possible to have erotic material that is not degrading to women, erotica that does not portray women as receptacle of sexual penetration?

Is it possible to discuss pornography intelligently without discussing masturbation?

In an earlier post, I wondered what other forum members, especially Christians, thought about the very sensitive, wonderfully thoughtful, and intellectually provocative website of an evangelical Christian called "Christians And Solo Sex (http://www.christiansandsolosex.com/)," who takes what to me is a sensible and wholesome attempt to explore these questions. I suspect many evangelical and fundamentalist Christians would be in agreement with the views on this site.

So as one who is not a Christian or a believer but who finds it important to understand something about Christians and their religion, I ask this of our Christian brothers and sisters here. What do you think of the perspective offered on this site?

Please look at it and tell us what you think. You can find it by clicking here (http://www.christiansandsolosex.com/).

Regards,

Alan