Intensity and duration of VRT movements.

[Focus]

Hi every one,

I have noticed on the VRT package's DVD that Greg did his movements rather quickly.
While doing pull ins, pull outs, or biceps curls, at maximum contraction, it took me about 4 or 5 seconds to make only 1 rep. So, it is very intensive and I can hardly go beyond 4 reps in a serie. And for each gesture, I do 4 series of 4 reps. (Whereas in bodyweight training I can make long series of push ups or pull ups).

Do you consider that
1: it is a good thing to make few intensive reps or
2 : should I increase their speed to make more reps or
3 : should I make one day quick reps and the other day slow reps ?


Thank you for any advice.

Focus

[dave]

Hi,

Are you getting results with what your doing now? If so stick with that. How long have you been using VRT? I've always found the more intense a rep the slower the speed, but overtime with pratice I've found my rep speed has increased with more intense reps.

Dave

[douglis]

Focus,
I have used all possible rep speeds from 1-2 seconds for 15-20 reps to 6-8 seconds for 6 reps.I can't really say that one way is better than the other.For sure slower reps are more intense but faster reps give you better pump.
Right now my rep speed is 2-3 seconds but in the future I'll use slower reps again.

[Focus]

Thank you for your help.

To Dave : my previous experience is only based on bodyweight stuff. So I have no idea about what works for me in VRT.

But I can tell you that today I was aching at the biceps and the upper back.

To Douglis : If both ways have interests, I'll use both...

[douglis]

The last couple of weeks I was experimenting with slow (6 sec) max tension reps.I really liked the intense feeling but I noticed a problem.In slow reps we have a high effort concentric contraction of the agonist opposed to a high effort eccentric contraction of the antagonist.The problem is that intensive eccentric contractions require more recovery time and less volume than the concentric ones.
For example in slow VRT pull-ups the lats are ready to be trained again in 48 hours but the shoulders(antagonist) might need 4 or more days.
I think faster reps (~2 sec) keep the balance better and allow more frequent training.

[vegetus25]

douglis,

I noticed you said you keep the tension both ways on DVR Push-ups, Squats, etc. Have you found a difference in recovery time from practicing this method as opposed to positive only DVR Push-ups, Squats, etc.? If so, do you consider the increased recovery time worth it? Since you said DVR in both directions is needed in these movements to stop the blood flow I am assuming the answer is, yes..

I am not sure I understand why the blood flow is stopped when doing a VRT Bench, but is not stopped when doing a positive only DVR Push-up? Can you explain it to me?

Thanks and God bless,

Veg

[Focus]

For example in slow VRT pull-ups the lats are ready to be trained again in 48 hours but the shoulders(antagonist) might need 4 or more days.

In this example, the problem might be strong muscles - lats - versus not so strong muscles - shoulders.
With VRT push ups or VRT biceps curls, the balance of strength should be better.

Not sure, just a thought.

[douglis]

Veg,
In normal push-ups the blood flow is stopped in the positive part and is free to flow in the negative.When you add DVR tension in the negative(both ways makes it even tougher) the blood flow is stopped for the entire set.This has many anabolic advantages.Of course,as you said,the recovery time is increased but I think(I'm sure) is worth it.
I perform VRT bench press(and all VRT exercises) positive only.So the blood flow is not stopped for the entire set.If we try to apply tension both ways the smaller antagonists will fatigue first leaving chest unexercised.In DVR push-ups this doesn't happen because of the combination of gravity and DVR tension.
Anyway,the combination of BW with DVR is an excellent way to train but I still prefer pure VRT exercises.The miracle of VRT is that you can train many muscle groups at once(agonists+antagonists).In BW+DVR the gravity takes the tension away from the antagonists.I use BW+DVR when I want to emphasize to a muscle group.For example VRT squats for the quads.

Focus,
In VRT shoulder press we have the same muscle pair as in VRT pull-ups.But the delts,that now contract concentricaly,don't seem to require more than 48 hours recovery time.Of course neither the lats face any problem with their eccentric contraction since it's a much bigger muscle group.I believe there's a difference in physiology between concentric and eccentric contractions and slow max effort eccentrics require more recovery and less volume probably due to the greater microdamage.

[vegetus25]

Douglis,

If I am reading you right you add DVR negative tension to BW movements to stop the bllood flow in order to gain some anabolic advantages. You perform VRT exercises to take advantage of being able to work many muscles at one time (which also provides a large anabolic advantage). DVR positive tension provides more anabolic stimulus because of the added tension vs. gravity alone, so it has advantages, also.

I have used positive only and both positive/negative tension w/ BW+DVR moves, but never have used negative only tension. I can see the logic behind it (cutting off blood flow). Do you switch applying negative only tension vs. applying both positive and negative tension? If so, why? Do you ever apply positive only tension on BW+DVR's?

I can see the trick to all of this would be seeing if cutting off the blood flow on BW+DVR moves increased your recovery time so much that you had to work out less and then lost the anabolic advantages of working out more frequently.

God bless,

Veg

P.S. Are VRT Squats to emphasize the quads the same as DVR Squats, i.e. adding tension to BW Squats)

[douglis]

Veg,

Applying negative only DVR tension?You remind me of my old weight lifting days.I've used this method only with weights.There was a guy,in many bodybuilding forums,that developed this method and named it ACIT training.You can find it here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/5353997/Accelerated-Inroad-Training
It's definitely worth the time to read it.I learned many things from this.
To cut the blood flow you need contractions stronger than 60% of your 1RM.BW exercises like push-ups and squats,most of the times,don't provide greater resistance than 50% of max.That's why in BW+DVR i always add DVR tension at the positive part.
Now what's better in BW+DVR?Positive only added tension or both directional.I'm still experimenting.With both directional tension you get occlusion for the entire set but the soreness doesn't allow you to train more than twice a week.With positive only tension you lose the benefits of occlusion but you can get stronger contractions(blood helps muscles contract) and you can train more often.I really can't tell which way is better.Both seem to work fine.
VRT squats = DVR squats
Veg wrote:
"If I am reading you right you add DVR negative tension to BW movements to stop the bllood flow in order to gain some anabolic advantages. You perform VRT exercises to take advantage of being able to work many muscles at one time (which also provides a large anabolic advantage). DVR positive tension provides more anabolic stimulus because of the added tension vs. gravity alone, so it has advantages, also."
You're right to all.

[Royce]

When you do exercises both ways with VRT resistance, you are doing what is commonly called “super setting.” So yes…………..you might find that you need a bit more recovery time.


Here is a post about eccentric contraction—negatives--that I posted to a friend awhile ago. Some of the post refers to a specific routine, but the information about eccentric contraction is, I think, pertinent to your post.

I usually advise using tension in only one direction. But there is no harm in applying DVR resistance in both directions.

There are some people who seem to believe that doing a DVR exercise in both directions is similar to doing so-called negative contractions with a barbell. Such is not the case. And here is why I say that:

Consider an overhead press with a barbell. The act of lifting the weight overhead is a concentric contraction.

After the weight is lifted overhead, your muscles must perform a “breaking action” in order to control the return of the weight to the starting position. As you do that you are performing an eccentric contraction.

But after a person does a DVR overhead press, there is no braking action involved as he lowers the arms to the start position; consequently, no legitimate eccentric contractions are possible. If you were to apply tension—DVR style-- as you returned to the starting position, you would really be doing a kind of pull-up. And it would be a concentric contraction, rather than an eccentric contraction.

You would, in fact, be doing what is called “super setting.” Certainly, super setting with DVRs. has a place. But we need to distinguish that from training with negatives.

[gruntbrain]

I 'm reminded of the isokinetic machines with hydraulic resistance; you performed double positives on 'em

[douglis]

As Royce suggests,I believe VRT should be performed positive only.VRT works muscles in pairs.If you perform it bi-directional the smaller muscle will fatgue first leaving the bigger unexercised.BW with DVR tension is an exception.
But I believe muscles can have a negative training with VRT.In positive only VRT pull-ups,besides the lats,the delts can have a perfect negative only workout.For me it's pointless,or even counterproductive,to do an overhead press afterwards.

[gruntbrain]

VRT can be used(abused) to perform endurance work. If this method is chosen then alternating the push/pull will serve you well. Given that VRT involves accommodating resistance, endurance types can "enjoy" this protocol for several minutes without pause.