A little editting please!

[Greg Newton]

Hey Guys,

We have some fantastic writers on this forum. But, I want to chicken choke your grade school and high school English teachers for how they taught some of you to use punctuation and to spell, or to be better put, how they didn't teach you! Don't feel out there. I used to have to review police reports and we have a whole generation who were taught to spell phonetically. Occassionally I will edit a superb post to make it more readable. However, I would prefer to not have to edit. Here are some tips:

1. Break your sentences into clumps of no more than three or four sentences. I realize this might not dovetail with commonly taught paragraph construction, but this makes your points easier to read in an internet forum format.

2. After punctuation such as commas, semi colons etc. leave a space. After the period at the end of sentences, leave two spaces.

3. Take the time to write your post, especially if it is a lengthy post, in Microsoft Word or another word processing format that has a spell and grammar check. Then cut and paste to put into your forum reply or thread.

Please don't be offended if I edit something you've written. That means it is quite good in the things you are expressing. I have to do it for my wife when she posts and she likes me to check behind her. I also did it for my daughter in college the one time she posted, and she had a cow when she found out I editted her post! I hate it for her. They aren't teaching her in college what they should have taught her in high school!

[Big Bear]

oops,

I am probably the greatest offender Greg-sorry!

Part of what I do is conscious.Some of my poetry and stuff has no punctuation at all-some of which has been published before.

Will try to be better.Sometimes I like the freedom of vast white spaces and then don't look back.Good thread my Bro! Again sorry!

peace,
jason

[MikeNY]

Jason you are one of the clearer writer's; while I am one of the worst, but I try. Greg good idea's! I expect that it is the passion that drives many of us, not mechanics of writing.

[Greg Newton]

Hey men - I concur with the passion part. I just want the jewels to shine for others to see. There are some extremely talented people who post here.

[Johnny]

Great post Greg...thanks on behalf of everyone. :good:

[tom]

Nice reminder, Greg.

I would also like to invite people to use their critical-thinking abilities as much as possible before writing. My use of "critical" is not related to "criticize." Thanks.

And Greg, sorry to say, the rule for computer writing now taught is to only have a single space after a period. Being old like you, it surprised me when I recently learned it. That was sacrilege. When I asked about it (critically pondering), I was told that typewriters have uh something and computers I forgot hey there's a bird in the window!

Tom

On a personal note (your daughter's reaction reminded me), I have decided to never edit or suggest an edit to anyone unless specifically asked. Twice. To me it's one of those lose lose situations like:

Telling a band member to turn down
Answering, "What do you think of this dress?"
The question, "Do I look fat?"

Land mines. All of them. I'm not perfect in my avoidance, but I'm trying.

[Kristian]

Greg,

Sorry! I am the biggest one at fault. After learning another language it has been very difficult to spell and use punctuation. My wife is a high school English teacher and corrects me in both English and Italian all the time! (Infact she helped me with a few things here :) )

Kris

[Greg Newton]

Hi Tom,

That was interesting about the single space on computer generated documents. The two spaces makes it a little more readable for those like myself who have middle-aged eyes. I want to remind everyone that these are just general recommendations and not directed at anyone in particular.

I was on another forum where they made a point to ask everyone to use punctuation, capitalizations where necessary, and to write readable sentences. It made sense that posts should be readable and not like a text message. The instructions went on to say that more people would read the posts if they were done in a more structured way.

The advice to structure paragraphs in no more than three to four sentences was my own. On a computer screen it is easier to read someone's thoughts and feelings if done in short sections like that.

As to my middle daughter Jennifer, of the "crush the apple and I am a beast fame," I was aghast at her grammar and sentence construction. It has been sort of an inside battle between us. She prided herself on going to a high school where they emphasized academics and looked down on Career and Technology Education. She wrote no better or no worse than some of the students I teach from the other high schools in the county they felt superior to.

[tom]

I was lucky to be raised by a father who gently taught us not only the may/can who/whom thing, but also the:

I/me (many over correct 360 on that one and end up wrong),
was/were,
declarative/subjunctive,
farther/further,
and whence/whither (Ha! You thought you were keeping up with me, didn't you).

It's funny, in the last couple of months I've noticed many more sloppiness much before I press Submit. I must be getting soft.

I have decided, though, that this may/can stuff should just be thrown out. I encourage any kid that is silly enough to listen to me to, when their parent corrects them on may/can, just say, "Oh Jeesh. You know what I mean, now just answer the question!" and then to walk quickly into their room before they get sent there. Yeah, I'm getting tired in my old age.

Besides, more grounded kids mean fewer on the road.

Tom

[Spid_Amerzon]

Hi Tom,
[...]
The two spaces makes it a little more readable for those like myself who have middle-aged eyes.
[...]


Some might not know, but you can enlarge the Text in your browser. You can hold the "Ctrl" key and scroll up or down with your mouse. Alternatively you can use the menus:
in Internet Explorer: View > Text Size
in Firefox: View > Zoom
I use this feature very often. (This additionally shortens the lenght of a text line as well.)

BTW: I always try to write my text error free. If I don't I might someday not even know anymore which is right or wrong. For that matter I also don't like to read slang or simplified words like "blu" instead of "blue"...
Oh and another thing. In my country english is a foreign language. Punctuation rules (for english) weren't taught on the lower school levels and on the higher ones - well I only rememeber that there are less comma than in German...

[JoeJustice]

Hey Greg... I don't mean to pile on along with Tom, but the double space after the period thing is antiquated. I still us it both on here and in documents, but anywhere on the web it doesn't even show up. Take a look at your posts, and you'll see that there is actually only one space, whenever you submit a post, the HTML engine will take out the extra space after the period. As a matter of fact, you can put in 50 spaces and it'll take them all out.

The reason it's not longer applicable is because computer fonts aren't all a uniformed size. When you had a typewriter all the letters were the same size because of the mechanics involved, so the double space made it more readable. However, with computer fonts a "t" and an "m" are different sizes, so the extra space isn't necessary to improve readability.

I still do the double space thing and probably always will until the day I die. My fingers can't unlearn once they've already been programmed. Here's a little article I found on it: http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/spaces-period-end-of-sentence.aspx

This is a great thread, I believe I'll move it to the Important Articles forum once everyone's put the feedback in.

-Joe

[Big Bear]

Hi Greg and Joe,

I want to thank you both personally for what you have done on this forum. You two are to be commended highly and I thank you both. Now the amazing thing about John,which Greg and I talked about this weekend is that he attracts good people. Yeah there have been trolls here and there(which thank goodness Joe and Greg take care of) but generally speaking people are great folks. The kind of folks you would like to kick back and watch a football game with or for our European friends a soccer match.

There are great things ahead for the Bronzebow family, and I am thankful daily that you have created this wonderful site John, the Classics you write,and the time you spend with everyone.

peace,
jason

[Alan_OldStudent]

Some might not know, but you can enlarge the Text in your browser. You can hold the "Ctrl" key and scroll up or down with your mouse. Alternatively you can use the menus:
in Internet Explorer: View > Text Size
in Firefox: View > Zoom
I use this feature very often. (This additionally shortens the lenght of a text line as well.)

BTW: I always try to write my text error free. If I don't I might someday not even know anymore which is right or wrong. For that matter I also don't like to read slang or simplified words like "blu" instead of "blue"...
Oh and another thing. In my country english is a foreign language. Punctuation rules (for english) weren't taught on the lower school levels and on the higher ones - well I only rememeber that there are less comma than in German...

Hi Spid and hello brothers and sisters,

My wife, who is a retired English, French, and Spanish literature teacher, tells me that the best way to become a good writer is to read a lot of very good writing. I have to agree with that.

Another thing that has helped me to improve my writing is to read my stuff aloud.

I don't just rattle through it. Instead, I try to read it slowly with expression, the way an good actor or a good preacher might read it.

When I find myself stumbling on bits and pieces, that's a clue that I've probably written a clumsy sentence that needs a bit of recasting.

As far as middle-aged and senior eyes go, here's an idea:

In the forum software editor, notice that you can change the size of text to be a bit larger. Just highlight the text you wish to enlarge and use the little drop-down size item in the forum software message editor.

I tend to write my posts in an off-line editor, and so I enter coding manually.

I increase the size of my own words slightly in messages I post but not things I quote. By only increasing the size of just my words and not material I quote, the entire post actually becomes easier to read. It makes it easier to distinguish between my message and the quote.

You can use BB code to do this. I do it manually in an off-line text editor. You can just highlight the text you want to increase and then use the handy little dropdown in the software forum editor

To do this manually, at the beginning of my text, I put this: . The 3 must be in quotation marks.

At the end of the text I put this: .

Other numbers give other results. The number 3 makes things more legible without being so large as to seem too obtrusive or distracting. This entire message is set with the tags.

If I use the number 5 like this:
This is a sample of size "5" text:
It ends up looking like this:
This is a sample of size "5" text
That's too large for posts.

And if I put down something like this:
This is a sample of size 1 text.
It looks like this:
This is a sample of size 1 text.
So the size 3 seems to look about right to me.

You can see a whole set of instructions on using BB Code by clicking here (http://www.transformetrics.com/forum/misc.php?do=bbcode), but only if you are logged into the forum.

Regards,

Alan OldStudent
Alan OldStudent's Musings (http://alanoldstudent.wordpress.com/)

[tom]

I only rememeber that there are less comma than in German...
Spanish did no harm to my spelling or writing. For some reason German did. I misspelled words I never missed before. I didn't think about the comma thing as coming from German but maybe it did - I'm often not sure of the rules and suspect I use them too much. As for spelling, it ain't what it used to be.

So, Greg, you got some ideas from Hardgainer. That brings back good memories. It was/is? a class act magazine and site. I gave away my huge collection a while ago. I had some correspondence with Stuart McRobert. He is a very classy, kind gentleman. He went out of his way to send a pile of stamps to me for my stamp-collecting little daughters. I didn't know the site still existed. Thanks for the memories.

While we're on spell-checking, sometimes the automatic spell checker in this message box doesn't agree with my American Oxford Dictionary 2.11. Oh well, Oxford isn't in America anyway. Whadaya esspect.

Tom

[Greg Newton]

Creikson,

FOUR MORE DAYS for us and I CAN'T WAIT!

[Scott Silva]

Greg

I recently perused your writings at the Round Table.

"Round Table", I - I just can't help it...

Minstrel: [singing] Brave Sir Robin ran away...
Sir Robin: *No!*
Minstrel: [singing] bravely ran away away...
Sir Robin: *I didn't!*
Minstrel: [singing] When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled.
Sir Robin: *I never did!*
Minstrel: [singing] Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about, and valiantly, he chickened out.
Sir Robin: *Oh, you liars!*
Minstrel: [singing] Bravely taking to his feet, he beat a very brave retreat. A brave retreat by brave Sir Robin.

Sir Robin: err - I mean Greg: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Keep going, I know of more than one member I think is spinning his wheels doing the weights that would do far better with this stuff!

[Greg Newton]

Hi Whacky,

I've been tied up with work this past couple of weeks. I'll be back over there after this week. I wanted to take time to make some well thought out answers to some of the questions I was asked. Writing there, is different from writing here. I want to be careful not to offend. It is a different sandbox I'm visiting. I had some ideas from an old John Grimek article I wanted to share. Stay tuned. :angel:

Greg

Also, I got to thinking about this. Since you were over there, why didn't you go ahead and give your input? A lot of those guys could be helped by utilizing some of the things promoted here.

[Scott Silva]

Writing there, is different from writing here. I want to be careful not to offend. It is a different sandbox I'm visiting.

Yes, you are right of course...

No, seriously though, it was fun to see you over there. Like something I said before, I really think of these methods to be the next logical step to the tenets put out by the Hardgainer magazine & Stuart McRobert.

I had some ideas from an old John Grimek article I wanted to share.

That is cool :glasses-cool:

Grimek is always interesting because of his gymnastic background.

I think I remember an article which mentioned that when he was younger he did calisthenics a lot in the winter months because it was so cold where he regularly weight trained??? I couldn't find this information online, on paper I wouldn't know where to start, Iv'e read so much junk...

I definitely remember reading about how when he was working for an iron company his diet mainly consisted of cans of baked beans (totally irrelevant, I know).

Of course though, he is also an excellent example of "longevity" in the sport, doing heavy squats well into his 70's. He had very good genetics, his bone structure was huge!

Also, I got to thinking about this. Since you were over there, why didn't you go ahead and give your input? A lot of those guys could be helped by utilizing some of the things promoted here.

I have! But your the writer, who is going to bother to listen to some dude named Wackybaby???

[Greg Newton]

...who is going to bother to listen to some dude named Wackybaby???

Well,

Me for one, my catheaded friend!:clap:

[tom]

It's a good idea to do the best you can and extend some leeway to all of us who make mistakes in spite of ourselves. Editing is good and a good reminder. Besides, how do we know what is an accident or a self-effacing bit of humor, such as misspelling editting in an editing thread? I put my bet on humor. If nothing else, it feels better. One way or another, I'm not going to mention it.

Tom

[JoeJustice]

Hey this thread really has me cracked up. I've gotten some really weird e-mails from people that are reading a little bit too much into what our good friend Mr. Newton is saying here. Someone sent me a link where someone has actually taken the time to search though the forum to find a bunch of typos Greg made and say, "See!!! He's not perfect, he makes mistakes too!!" :rotfl:

I dunno why some people take things the way they do, so I'll just chalk it up to the vagaries of communication in the internet age. Seems we can get in touch with people in so many ways now but sometimes seem to actually communicate less.

I digress...

All Greg was saying with this thread is that you will get more people to read your posts if you're a little bit more clear with your writing. He's seen a few posts that were difficult to read and edited them to clean them up, just some periods here and spaces there. Greg's just trying to help out, not flaunt his superior grammatical skills or something like that.

The way people read into things that aren't really there... sheesh... :giggle:

-Joe

[PowerHank]

Probably the best little book an aspiring young writer will ever buy.

The Elements of Style Strunk and White.

[Andy62]

Communication will always remain the great human problem !

[Greg Newton]

All Greg was saying with this thread is that you will get more people to read your posts if you're a little bit more clear with your writing. He's seen a few posts that were difficult to read and edited them to clean them up, just some periods here and spaces there. Greg's just trying to help out, not flaunt his superior grammatical skills or something like that.

Joe,

You and I know where this foolishness is coming from. It is from a few people who got banned off this forum who have too much time on their hands. I am NOT full scale editting posts for grammar. If anyone reads that into what I wrote, they need to go back to school and learn how to read. They missed something in reading comprehension.

This was a request for some of you to check your longer posts. A couple of you, who have thanked me, had very good posts, but needed some work with punctuation and spacing. No big deal. It made excellent posts more readable.

Too, every once in awhile I see a title of a thread that has a mispelled word. I do it sometimes. When I see it I change it. Once again, no big deal other than making the forum look more professional. I know enough to know when someone is misspelling a word on purpose for effect.

A little group of miserable miscreants have done their best to crash John's forum, attempt to discredit him in anyway possible, and ruin his business. The prediction I heard last year was that people were leaving his forum in droves and he would soon be out of business, thanks to them. That is why they latch onto things like this and grossly misinterpret what is going on.

I feel sorry for those guys. They are spitting in the ocean in the hopes of keeping the tide from rolling in.

[JoeJustice]

They missed something in reading comprehension.

Or they're fruit loops.

You give them way too much credit by suggesting they're just misinterpreting things. You and I get these nutty e-mails from these guys and even though we rarely respond to them they continue to obsessively e-mail us. Apparently one of them scoured this site to find typo's you've made because they believe your point in this post was to tell everyone you're some kind of super genius who never makes mistake. Generation of these kinds of constructs and obsessive behavior is not that of someone who misinterprets, its the behavior of a neurotic stalker.

Good thing people like this never get outside, I'm sure their mommy's basement is nice and comfy.

-Joe

[tom]

Pow, that is one of my favorite all-time books. It should be required of all and often is. As a matter of fact, I think it has been further revised since I read it thirty years ago, pre- computers.

Besides Charlotte's web, E B White, the White of Strunk and White, wrote some fantastic short stories. I put him up there along with my over-all all-time favorite genius writer for reals bar none, Mark Twain.

Tom