What firearm's do you really need

[MikeNY]

Several Liberal friend's have sought out my advice on weapons. I've been telling them that cheap .22LR rifles, pistols and a good shotgun offer the protection they need and want, and that if they want more power .357 magnum carbines and revolvers offer good protection and value.

In the .22 I've advised them to get hyper velocity 22LR rounds like CCI Stingers, Aguila Interceptor rounds shoot a 40 grain bullet at 1500 ft per second, or Aquila Super Maximums as a Stinger replacement. http://www.lasc.us/TaylorPACO22RFSpecialty.htm One guy used a scoped .22LR at 300 yards & made 400 yard shots. http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=782785&page=1 I've shot a .22LR rifle at 200 yards & 75 yards with a pistol, people never try it.

The Aguila Interceptor is about the same as the old .22wrf the older version of the .22magnum. Here is a link on the .22wrf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Winchester_Rimfire IMHO 22's make for a rifle or pistol that females and younger adults can handle. A lot of cop's started carrying CCI 22LR Stingers in a small auto while I was on the force, it hits like a .38 Special and it is a .22LR Hyper velocity hallow point round. I have a Walter PPK/S .22LR and a small jennings .22LR with stingers. They use the Mafia trick put 2 or 3 rounds into the target to.

There was a study they tested the M16, M4 (M16 short carbine, AK47, AKM and three lever guns, 30-30, 44mag and 357mag. Fired on a combat course the M4 won, M16 was next, followed by the .357mag, 44mag, 30-30 and then lagging the AKM and finaly the AK47. Plus lever guns are not scary. I can see a 9mm pistol and carbine combo, or a .40 also, even a .45ACP. The .357 has more range than people realize.

I also tell them all to get a shotgun, nothing stops like a shotgun in a gunfight. With slugs it is a carbine to 100 yards 125 yards, with buckshot deadly and at close range even birdshot.

I hate writing things like this to be honest, but just in case the worst happens.

I fixed the links, copied them from a email and it must have been defective, sorry.

[MikeNY]

Here are two articles on lever action .357 magnum carbines for those interested. Four carbines are reviewed.

Puma Model 92 .357 Magnum/.38 Special Carbine By Mark Wynn http://www.chuckhawks.com/puma_92_carbine.htm

Compared: .357 Mag. Henry Big Boy, Marlin 1894C and Uberti 1873 Lever Action Rifles By Chuck Hawks http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_big-boy_1894C_1873.htm

[Larry Wick]

Hi All,


Its nice to be back to get back in the swing of things for the hoidays, and speaking of Christmas I hope that everyone has their shopping done and is getting ready to have a great time with family and friends.

Mike, I you hit it right on the head. I could not agree with you more on your selection of weapons. A 22 will deal with most any kind of situation as long as you can hit what you are aiming at. The shells are quite cheap so you can practice alot. I have both a pistol and rifle and they are excellent. My rifle will fire any type of 22/ Long, short, long rifle, and even bird shot. And how can you go wrong with a shotgun. A 410, 20 gage, 12 gage and 10 gage will get the job done. I have three different type of 12 gauges. Shor barrel pump, full length auto, and a special clip full auto. When ever you own a fire arm I have one word of advice, practice and practice alot and make certain you do it safely. I like all types of firearms as they all have different pruposes. I have a least one 357 a 9mm, 38, 45-70, 30-30, 454, but always keep in mind that they have to be stored in a safe place when not in use. I have an excellent security system and safe. In saying that I always keep a weapon in a location that can be retrieved very quickly. A weapon is no good if you cannot get to it.

Be safe, your friend, Larry

[MikeNY]

Donna you have kid's invest in a lock box for the guns and ammo. My bet is your kid's are both smart and respectful, but they have friend's and a locked gun with locked ammo is safe. They have some with keys to press in a combination.

Practice with a .22 makes sense you become a better shooter, then he will need to pratice with the .38 also; you practice with the .22; learn to shot with regular cheaper .22lr ammo. If you ever need it for self protection load the Hyper Velocity ammo I noted above. Would be a good idea to get a .22 rifle also. The Hyper Velocity .22lr's hit as hard at 100 yards as a regular .22lr at the muzzle from a rifle.

Anyone needing self protection needs a shotgun, nothing does as good a job at the range most gunfights take place. With slugs it is a carbine and with bird shot still lethal close and 00 and 000 buckshot are deadly.

[MikeNY]

Donna for two guns you don't need a gun safe, just a lock box and some of those can be bolted to to a surface or a wall. They are low cost, locked and steel. I bet your husband can find them locally at a good price.

[Greg Newton]

Mike and Donna,

I just happened to read over this thread. I currently don't own any firearms other than a black powder mustket that hasn't been fired in decades. Keeping firearms under the mattress or pillow can be extremely dangerous and there have been incidents where people shot themselves or others by accident when doing this.

When I was a police officer I kept my service weapon in a lock box and I had the only key. One department I worked for issued trigger locks and by policy we had to use them when off duty. At the time Lauren was two. While I was at work she climbed to the top of the dresser and got the trigger lock. Somehow she figured out how to take it apart. I found half when I got home, but never found the other half.

The point is, if a two year old can do something like that, what about an older child? I had teens at home at the time, and young people like to do show and tell to their friends. That is why I had the only key to that box. I am with Mike on keeping firearms locked away from children.

Greg

[tom]

As to the accessibility, safety thing, I always had this idea: get 4 or 5 of whatever gun you decide to have in the house. Sheetrock them in the walls with thin sheetrock. Put them in there loaded. Texture, paint, remember where they are. Keep a final gun in a lockbox or safe, unloaded, and no ammo in the house. That's the one you take out to practice with, a lot, as Larry says.

Naw, I'm not going to do it. But if I was of the worrying sort in a situation and neighborhood where I needed it, no matter what the anti-gun people say, you can bet that I would be the first . . . . . . to move.

Tom

I grew up on a farm where the guns were kept in the open gun shelf behind the door in the boys' room and the ammo was in the drawer underneath. They were all hunting shotguns and rifles.

[MikeNY]

Donna a .380 has a lighter bullet and less gunpowder than a .38 Special, not as powerful. It is still lethal and quite popular in Europe and the USA. You can make a smaller & lighter weapon for it than a 9mm or a .38 Special, so it lends itself to concealed carry. For self defence using one I'd favor a hallow point and what is called a Plus P loading, meaning maximum power, that translates into the highest muzzle velocity possible.

[MikeNY]

For anyone planning on using a .22lr in a rifle, even using the Hyper Velocity rounds mentioned, think about a scope to improve bullet placement.

Might be kind of old fashioned, but all you need is the .22lr pistol and rifle and that shotgun; and ammo.

[Larry Wick]

Hi Everyone,


Great words of advice. I cannot believe how much time has changed. When I was young we would bring our rifle to school and on the bus. On the way home the bus driver would drop me off so I could go grouse hunting on the way home. It always kills me when they say guns kill people. It is the messed up, legally druged up society that is given ever type of anti depressent, and ritalin product they can possibly create and sell, that has created many mentally disturbed people who cannot face the world without violence. What is sad, I believe it will only get worse. I am a man that hates violence but when it comes to those that I have trained or loved, when absolutely unavoidable, SSS is a world a part from from the levels of techniques that are taught by others. To all, train with your favorite weapons and train how to realisticly disarm those that may destroy you or your loved ones. You may never need your skills, but if you do, it will be the most import half second in your life!!!!!!!! Be safe, your friend Larry

[MikeNY]

Larry before I retired they had all our Officer's learn the FBI Techniques for legal reasons. We had Officer's that taught various martial arts and others were students; but were to use the standard FBI Method's for legal reasons. Once the FBI were great gunfighter's but that is gone. They abandoned the old time teachings of Jelly Bryce and his sort and since then Agents get killed. I remember the FBI Shotout in Miami in 1986, and they failed to learn before or learn a lesson after that.

I was in an informal investment club with FBI Agents, State & Local Officers, we'd meet and talk stocks and investments. One thing, most of us then carried S&W M19 .357s, and one can measure stopping power on rounds expended on pit bulls and other vicious dogs, cars etc. After they switched to 9mm Officer's would need a lot more rounds to stop one pit bull.

[MikeNY]

Just an update several survivalist Blogs are just now recommending a .22lr with the type of .22lr hypervelocity bullets recommended here in this thread and a shotgun. I still think the same; get a .22lr pistol and rifle, use Hypervelocity .22LR rounds and have that shotgun! Shotguns are serious gunfighting weapons. Long ago discussed this with a Western History expert he thought it was both the lever-action rifle and shotgun that beat the Native American Indians and most farmers used the shotgun.

Most gunfights in the old West were won with Shotguns and revolvers, in fact probably most gunfights up until very recent times. If you have a revolver get a couple quick loaders (or carry two revolvers and still have quick loaders) , if you have an auto extra clips. In cop school they taught us that 95% of gunfights took place at 21 feet or less. If you have a handgun and a shotgun you will win most gunfights. Everyone recommends a shotgun with a 20 inch barrel, and many men have a 18.5 deer barrel with rifle sights; that 18.5 inch barrel might be a better weapon in close conditions and is just as good for a gunfight as the 20 inch barreld pump, you load usually one less round because of the shorter magazine tube. I preferr a pump or auto, but have seen people use a double barrel to great effect; you cna learn to fire that every fast.

Gordon's stress on the mind is very important for survival; you must be ready to act in a decisive manner. They teach cops to pay attention to thier gut feelings, if your gut says no; then listen, your subconcious mind has no language skills so communicates with feelings. Listen to those feelings, your subconcious might have seen something, movement in a window or a flash of something your concious mind did not register.

A friend asked me about a 9mm carbine, they are cheap and to answer him I had him use use .22lr at 200 yards, he was surprised at how accurate it was; and he bought that 9mm carbine & one for his wife. Others buy .357 carbines and rifles; you can buy Buffalo bullets loaded for bear literally 180 gr bullets and hot. A .357 magnum does not look menacing if you are taking it to the car. It is deadly and on a par with a AK47 round, if you have a 30-30 keep it, the 30-30 is a fine caliber and can take all North American game. Lever action rifles and carbines are fast and accurate plus don't look like an assualt rifle and creepy; you can also do cowboy action shooting and have fun.

[Larry Wick]

Hi Everyone !

It si great to be back. It was a tough trip, however I really do think Alabama is a great place. The way society seems to be going, I suggest that it does not really matter what type of firearm you get, but just get one where you can purchase alot of ammo. As we continue to loose are rights faster than I could possibly imagine, there is no doubt in my mind that there will be the goal of removing firearms from the honest law abiding citizen, and who will be left with them to control your life, criminals and the government. What a pleasent thought. Train hard and as always, be safe. your friend Larry

[MikeNY]

New York City now has a magazine ban and the only legal magazines available are 5 round magazines; New York State has a 10 round magazine law, and in the State older large cap magazines were grandfathered in so remain legal. This is how they will ban guns, by banning the magazines, a 1911A1 .45 Auto magazine is now illegal in New York City.

I am sure criminals will comply; Not! Machine guns have been illegal in the USA since 1936 unless licensed; and criminals use unlicesned full auto weapons on a regular daily basis in every US City, shotguns with very short barrels have also been illegal since 1936 but are also common in use among criminals.

Larry I am sure that you are right and this is the goal of Politicans and thier criminal backers, for they are many times linked to criminal groups. My friend's father lived in pre-WWII Siciliy and thinks the USA is becoming a second Sicily, an oppressed Socialist State. He has noted that before WWII Informer's and Fascist's were often found in the morning garbage castrated, thier faces slashed to punish and destory, stabbed to death; and later when the WWII started Informer's, Fascist's and Nazi's were found castrated, thier faces slashed, stabbed to death in the morning garbage. He has said in a land without Justice the people take justice into thier own hands; Mafia Lords always knew not to push to far, not to break the unwritten laws and punishment was swift, sure and deadly. If they couldn't catch them alone at night then they used used Lupara wolf guns, double barreled shotguns with very short barrels around 12 inches long to assassinate Mafia and Socailist Fascists for crimes committed and to punish them for the rapes, murders and robberies they had done using the Law to protect themselves. Shooting the dead in the face to remove thier identity to punish and destory so they'd be faceless for eternity.

If one looks at the legend of Robin Hood you see a similar tale and warning to those that would rob people of thier rights, lives and use them like animals. Desperate people do desperate things, once a man has lost everything he has nothing to lose, then he is dangerous. Tyrants in the West have always been opposed from the Ukraine, Poland to France, Spain and the story is always the same a Robon Hood arises to oppose the Sheriff of Nothingham.

[Robert Ellis]

Great thread here! Just wanted to point out that it's actually a 'transfer tax' of $200 that you have to pay when you buy a machine gun. They implemented this in 1936 as to try to hinder organised crime, of course it didn't work. It just made it so the average American couldn't buy machine guns--$200 was a LOT of money back then, which I think they very well knew. Also, short-barreled firearms have never been illegal, but they are subject to the same 'transfer tax' as machine guns, as are explosives, and other 'scary things' etc. Now in 1986, our good ol' Dems sneakily slipped something into a bill that banned the import and manufacture of full-auto's for the civilian market. So, it IS illegal for us to buy full-auto's made after 1986, they have to have been in the country before then. This is not so if you're a Class III dealer of manufacturer. Also, this only applied to machine guns, not sawed-off guns or anything else.

Now, after all that, here's some good news. In all of this discontent over Obama, we may be able to actually change a few things back to how they should be. Read this article for good news:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=128035

God bless,

Robert

[mts]

I have three fire arms: (i) a 14 round Taurus OSS in 45 caliber; (ii) a 16 round 9mm Taurus PT99S; and (iii) a Mossberg 500 with an 18.5 inch barrel (interchangeable 26' filed barrel, as well as a pistol grip conversion kit). I bought the 9mm pior to the Brady bill taking effect in the 90's and the 45 caliber as soon as the current president was elected as I suspected that he would reinstate the Brady "assault" ban.

I suspect that law abiding citizens will not be able to purchase these if the magazine bans spread.

[MikeNY]

While younger I was lucky enough to hear adults speak about guns and the Old West, since heard the same things from other sources. Several mentioned that farmer's in the Old West had a shotgun and a .22rifle and if they owned a revolver it was many times a cap & ball .36 Navy or 1860 .44 Army revolver.

The thesis was that the West was won with Shotguns (firing ball or slug; bird shoot or buckshot) and .22 rilfes. Now these were people into .357, 44 Special, 44 magnum, .45ACP, shotguns, 30-30, 303, 30-06 rifles. It struck me later that what was said was logical and that faced with limited money most men would buy a shotgun and a low price .22 rifle. People always knew that deer were killed with .22 rifles, not advised but common enough that all hunters knew the practice existed. Read were even hot loads in .22s in the Depression 40 grain bullets at 1425 feet per second from rifles.

[MikeNY]

A lady has a country place where there are bears, moose and large game. She is not comfortable with 30-06 or .308 due to he being petit and small. She wanted something to keep her safe from a bear, and capable of taking large game if times were bad. She likes lever action rifle and wondered about a 30-30 carbine, but noted it kicks fairly hard for her.

There is an alternative to consider a .357 magnum carbine, they are very light in recoil and can be handled and carried by a smaller person. It is capable of taking a bear, moose or deer if needed. She had one more need, she fears instablity and wants something capable of self protection, she is active and 50. There are Marlin's 16.25" barrel (in blue), Rossi M92 in stainless and blue 16" and 20" barrled carbines and have seen M92 carbines by Winchester, Browning, Rossi, Navy Arms, LSI and Uberti, as well as various length barreled M94 Winchesters in .357. Buffalo Bore and others sell 180 grain Bear Loads in .357. There are also .44 magnum rifles in M92 that can use .44 Special rounds, and the .357 magnum rifles and carbines can use .38 Special ammo.

A .357 magnum can be used in a revolver also, one round for both rifle and revolver is useful. A rifle and pistol combination worked well on the Frontier and still works. The Marlin has the advantage that a scope is easy to mount of you want a scope.

Thought I'd share the reply with the forum. Personnely I like the 30-30 rifle, many are capable of 2" groups at 100 yards, it has taken all North American game and modern loads make it more capable, but the rounds cost more than a .357 and come in boxes of 20, verses a box of 50 for the .357.

If the lever gun was used in defence in the Old West, it was taught to leave the rifle at your shoulder and work the lever, that makes for faster follow up shots and not lower the rifle to the waist and work the action; that is much slower! Westerners reloaded the lever gun during lulls, one trick they used was to push a round into the loading gate half-way, then push in another round the same way (half way through the loading gate) until the rifle was reloaded, it makes reloading faster, the last round is pushed fully into the magazine.

[MikeNY]

I have three fire arms: (i) a 14 round Taurus OSS in 45 caliber; (ii) a 16 round 9mm Taurus PT99S; and (iii) a Mossberg 500 with an 18.5 inch barrel (interchangeable 26' filed barrel, as well as a pistol grip conversion kit). I bought the 9mm pior to the Brady bill taking effect in the 90's and the 45 caliber as soon as the current president was elected as I suspected that he would reinstate the Brady "assault" ban.

I suspect that law abiding citizens will not be able to purchase these if the magazine bans spread.

MTS you wrote something very interesting, the choice of firearms. In the Old West and even modern times most gunfights were won with shotguns and revolvers. now if semi-automatic pistols remain legal, we can with ease modify that rule to shotguns and pistols.

Most real life gunfights occur ar 25 feet or under, and that includes long arms in Police and Civilian actions. After WWI the US, UK and Germany examined combat records and developed medium range rounds, the Germans developed a 8mm shortened case that became the AK47 7.62X 39mm round, the British a .280 and the US adopted the .30 caliber carbine and round (really a powerful pistol round). The Nation's discovered most military actions occured at less than 100 yards, mostly much less than 100 yards.

The AK47 and a 9mm carbine group about 6 inches at 100 yards. Many 30-30, .357 and 44mag carbines do much better than that, grouping around 2 inches. Many 12 guage shotguns and slugs are effective at 75 to 125 yards depending on the slugs used and if the barrel is smooth bore or rifled; 100 yards is possible with a smooth bore and good slugs and even 125 yards depending on the slugs. A shotgun firing slugs is really a carbine, and retains the ablity to fire buckshot and birdshot.

[Larry Wick]

Hi All,


I hope that everyone is having a great spring, and I hope that all of you have a safe,happy, healthy summer.
I have been doing alot of traveling and teaching recently. We have almost finsihed the physical program for the Respect program and Bronze Bow is looking a completing the verbal skills in the upcoming weeks. I will be in LA on June 13 teaching a SSS seminar, then judging a the World Tang Soo Do karate championships in July. Then back to work in New York. A busy schedule, but it is worth it, as I believe that I have help protect and changes the lives of many people.
When it comes to firearms, there are two mindsets that you must always have. Can I respond quickly enough to be able to use my weapon if needed, and do I focus on the mindset that I am focusing on the things that I do not see while keeping control of those that I need to. To be effective and realistic you MUST test your skils on how you would react to an uncontrolled situation. This does take a special mindset and training. If you cannot retrieve you weapon fast enough or if you are unable to train yourself with the mindset that the things that you do not see or expect are the things that may kill you, it does not matter what type of weapon you have. AS ALWAYS TRAIN SAFELY AND OFTEN !!!!

BE SAFE, YOUR FRIEND, LARRY

[MikeNY]

Talking to a friend; he has a .22LR pistol and a shotgun, he wants another gun, a rifle. He is a leveraction man and thinks a .22 rifle will fill out his arsenal. He has the information in this thread about getting hypervelocity .22 rounds. I've recommended a Henry Rifle and they can fire .22 short, long and long rifle rounds, and .22 LR hypervelocity bullets.

I saw a video of elite US Marines in Helmond Province, Afghanistan with thier M4 carbines and latest equipment. These were elite Marines and what I saw was poor fire disciplne; using full auto, so most Troops will be and are worse! A leveraction .22lr using hypervelocity rounds (and a scope would improve things) should be able to hold thier own in that enviropment. An AK47 usually gives a six group at 100 yards and the AK Family are among the best Infantry weapons on the planet. There are reports that the M16& M4 family have problems in the deserts of the Middle East and Afgahistan with the fine sand and jamming.

[MikeNY]

Recently got a letter, a forum member wondered if a 30-30 rifle is a workable substituterifle . I think highly of the 30-30 rifle and own one. They are a fine hunting rifle for deer and even larger North American game, 30-30 rifles have taken all North American game. During the Mexican Revolution the Winchester M94 rifle in 30-30 was thought superior by many, you could trade one used leveraction Winchester 30-30 in mexico for 3 to 7 Bolt Action new Mausers. Now the question is why, the answer was speed, they wanted the superior speed, light weight and rugged features of a Winchester M94 30-30. A 30-30 rifle and pistol still make a potent combination.

I recommend for a carry weapon that you keep the caliber at 9mm or .38 Special minimum, but remember a .22LR Hypervelocity pistol makes a workable substitute but you'd need to use a double tap when firing, ie hit each target twice in the center mass, use three shots on one target if they are alone.

[Larry Wick]

Hi Mike,

I totally agree with you. A 22 is a geat weapon. I have an old Winchester pump that will shoot any type of 22 bullets. Shorts, long, long rifle, magnum, and even birdshot. I love that gun. I have had it since I was a little kid. Also a good scope turns that weapon in to a useful hunting tool for all types of game.

If you are thinking about a handgun for self-defense make certain it is a revolver. It will not jam if and attacker grabs it as you fire, and the powder blast and concussion can be used a an extremely effective weapon without having to shoot your attacker a point blank range.

Be safe, your friend, Larry

[MikeNY]

Larry great comments, for the majority of people a revolver is superior; it has an easier manual of arms, easy to laod and unload, a revolver (modern ones) is safe as long as the hammer is not cocked on a single action or a double action revolver, keep your finger off the trigger if the hammer is cocked! With a modern double action revolver use the trigger to fire the weapon and practice, it takes deliberation intent for that. Easy to use, and as Larry says muzzle and cylinder blast. A revolver just jams less than a automatic pistol just the nature of the beast, it can jam, but I've never seen that happen; usely be defective ammo or a mechanical problem.

The Mafia and CIA like .22LR pistols, that tells you a lot!

[depends3]

i'm trying to learn how to use this site and that why it took me time to get back to you if i could get some help on how use this site i could talk to you more.

darin simons

[Jamestexas]

I have a issued Glock 22, and a baby Glock 27 for walking around. I like the 40 cal. Usually shoot a 100 round box of target ammo I get from Walmart for 27.00 once a week. Wish I was a better shot. lol

[Icarus67]

A very interesting weapon I've recently discovered is the "Circuit Judge" by Taurus. It is a rifle with a cylinder that can hold either .45 or .410 shells. I think it would be a great basic "survival" gun.