Bowie Knife Fencing Article

[MikeNY]

Here is an article on Bowie knife fencing in old New Orleans with historical information. This will interest a lot of you, they used blades between 9 and 15 inches long and trained with fencing. Made me wonder if this is a case of a superior weapon or a weapon with superior training by user's. I once read that every city and town along the Mississippi River had a Salle de Arms where they studied sabre fencing for the use of the bowie knife. For each paid student there'd be a trickle down effect as he passed that knowledge along to family and friends. http://www.defensereview.com/shiva-ki-custom-fightin-bowie-knife-big-fast-and-mean/

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[Greg Newton]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for posting the article. I find things having to do with martial arts and the early history of this country to be very interesting. We have comforts today because rough and ready men explored wildernesses, climbed over mountains, and sailed down rivers. Violence is never pretty, but it is sometimes necessary. Even one of our greatest presidents, Abraham Lincoln, was no stranger to the rough and tumble of the Mississipi river towns. He was also in his early years a man of great physical prowess, being a champion wrestler.

Greg

Lincoln and wrestling link http://home.att.net/~rjnorton/Lincoln48.html

[MikeNY]

Greg that is a great link! Enemies to the best of friend's and Lincoln would be a calming influcence he was a thinking man and a man of action.

You are right Greg it is because of men like Lincoln we built the USA. Honest, decent and hard working.

[Andy62]

That is an interesing article about an American legend. Both of my sons are graduates of the University of Texas at Austin. Several times when I would visit them and they were in class I would drive to San Antonio and visit the Alamo. I have always had an interest in all history and biography and not just in physical culture history. The history of the Alamo and Jim Bowie really hooked me. I not only started reading about it I started collecting Bowie Knives. I have not added to the collection in the last 10 or 15 years,but it has to have appreciated substantially over that time. I have a copy of what I consider the best book on Bowie knives ever published "The Antique Bowie Knife Book" It is beautiful. I purchased numbered copy 287 when it first came out in 1990 for $150.00. I just checked it on Google and there are copies listed for $1,200+.

The history of the Bowie Knife is so steeped in legend that nobody knows the true story. No American firm manufactured Bowies in any quantity until the Civil War Era. Most ot he Bowies in America prior to that time where manufactured in England . My grandmother's family emigrated to the US in the 1830s and landed at the Port Of New Orleans. They then traveled up the Missiissippi River to St. Louis where they settled. My grandfather was born in 1867 and he was alive the first 5 years of my life and my grandmother who was born in 1870 lived until I was 17 so I grew up on many frontier and riverboat stories and legends. A number of those old guys were around when I was growing up. The Bowies were very common with the keelboaters along the river. While there may have been schools in New Orleans I can't imagine the keelboaters or any of those frontiersmen of that era attending them as they were the most self sufficient and independent people you can imagine. They were brawlers, heavy drinkers, and lived on the edge in every way -they were really "tough."They didn't depend on anybody to teach them anything. They were the ultimate example of Conscious Evolution. This is really interesting stuff.

[MikeNY]

I've read a lot about the Bowie knife, and think that it is a evolution of the Southern European Peasant & Farmers knife as so many Historians and Experts have noted. That might even be where the Cutlass can from. Gordon I am sure there were also Bowie knife user's that were into the rough and tumble school.

IMHO there were three sizes of Bowies, the 8 or 9 inch bladed fancy knives carried by gentle and plainer models fo men in the Towns and Cities along the Mississippi and the West; Utlitarian hunting knives of that type and third type larger Bowies for War or Frontier Fighting, with 13 inch to 15 or 16 inch blades like many from the Civil War era.

I see the Bowie as a weapon a lot like the Roman Gladius, short, able to hack off a limb and dealing a deadly thrust as well as the back cut. I to collect Bowie knives mostly modern reproductions. Owning a Bowie is good insurance, it can cut wood or chop a bad guy if ever needed.

[Andy62]

They come in all shapes and sizes. I have a replica of Sam Houston's Bowie which is huge and more like a sword.

Several years ago The Franklin Mint put out what they claimed was an authenticated duplicate of the original knife that blacksmith James Balck made for Jim Bowie. As with anything of that nature in history the authenticity has been challenged,but I am glad that I have it anyway.

[MikeNY]

Gordon when you get to 13 to 13 3/4 inch blades and larger they are more like a short sword, I have some larger ones 13 3/4 inch blades to 20/22 inches, they really are almost a short saber or cutlass. My favorites are the 13 3/4 to 15 or 16 inch blades. I see them almost as a throw back to the ancient Greeks and Romans that had weapons very similar in size and shape.

When the Europeans were exploring, trading and doing business in frontier places from the US to South America, China, India and Africa they carried a Bowie and a Colt's revolver and that was a potent combination for self defence in those times where life was cheap and danger everywhere. Really easier than a full sized sword to carry and just as effective.

[Andy62]

The Bowie Knife has become a legend because of it's involvement in the Battles of the Alamo and San Jacinto along with the heros who fought in those legendary battles - Davy Crochett, Jim Bowie and Sam Houston. Anyone who has been to the Alamo will recognize flags from almost all countries in Europe along with the many Mexicans who fought there on the side of Texas. Also people came from all over America to join in. Their spirit was best represented by Davy Crockett who when he lost an election in Tennessee uttered his famous quote, "You all can go to Hell as for me me I'm going to Texas".The events are so shrouded in legend that it is difficult to figure out the actual facts.The firearms used in both battles were single shot- the revolver would not come on the scene until later in the 1800s. Even the Bowie Knife of that era was crude having been described by Jim Bowie's brother Rezin as a hunting knife.Various accounts of both battles describe the Bowies of that era as butcher knives or modified butcher knives. The thing that cannot be doubted is the bravery and courage of the men that fought in both battles and the effectiveness of the Bowie Knife in both battles. The Battle of San Jacinto which followed shorlty after the Alamo is a prefect example. The battle itself lasted only 18 minutes,but the slaughter continued for hours as the Texans, then known as Texicans and Tejanos[ Texans of Mexican heritage who wore white banners on their hats so they would not be mixed up with Santa Anna's Mexican army] chased the fleeing troops shouting "Remember The Alamo" and slashing them with the Bowies.
The effectiveness of the Bowie at the battle of San Jacinto is evidenced by the body count.

Santa Anna's Army:
700 dead
730 captured

Texans:
9 dead

The memorials of both battles honor the brave men of both sides who fought and in many cases died in both battles.

[MikeNY]

Gordon I think the Bowie knife is very close to what the ancient Spartans, Armies of Alexander and the Roman Legions used. The Western Frontier version really a short sword and a magnum of a sword. It was also used by British Officers fleeing the Sepoy Mutiny, by Europeans in the Boxer Rebellion and in the US Western Frontier as well as every other Frontier place including the Sudan under Gordon. The reason they used it was it works, plain and simple, it does the job.

[Andy62]

People in different societies can make the same discoveries independent of eachother. I think it is very possible that is the case with the Bowie Knife. It is just a very functional and effective piece of equipment for the purpose that it was created to perform. At the time of the Alamo there was very little connection between the people who fought there and the educated upper classes of Europe who would have been aware of the history and the evolution of that type of weapon. According to the legend Jim Bowie's brother Rezin and Arkansas blacksmith James Black modified a butcher knife and that was the first American Bowie. Later when the knife was further modified and went into mass production they were manufactured in England with no American mass production until the Civil War. To me that is the most logical explanation ,but as with any legend there are others. Whatever it's real history it is a simple and very functional weapon that is fascinating even to this day.

[MikeNY]

Gordon I totally agree!

I think the reason the Bowie knife resembles the fighting swords of ancient Greece and Rome; the Kopis, Makhaira http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makhaira ,the Sax of the Saxons and Vikings, the Chinese Butterfly knife, the Cinquedea and the large Mederterrian Peasant Knife is form dictates function. Not a case of it being a copy cat, but of great minds around the world thinking alike. The Bowie combines the cutting power of an axe or meat cleaver with the thrusting power of a rapier but amplified on a massive scale, a Bowie leave an extrance wound like a small shovel on a thrust , 3 inches to 3.5 inch wounds.

I've read British Cavalry and Medical Officers examined the Bowie for use by British forces, and Bowie bayonets were made. They noted that unlike a Cavalry saber that a Bowie could chop off a limb or head, and the thrust wounds were large and deadly. This is a weapon easier to carry than a long sword, weighs less and does yoeman like service. The same weapon more or less was used by European Peasants to defeat Islamic Invaders and drive them from Europe. Mount a Bowie blade or scimitar blade on a Peasants four foot fighting staff and you have the Rhompia and the manual of arms remains the same for the fighting staff or the Rhompia.

[Andy62]

I agree and even the butcher knife itself and unmodified is a pretty effective weapon

[MikeNY]

Gordon I have a feeling that the Frontier Butch Knives were larger than modern models and made along the frontier. From what I've read of the first Bowie knife, it was made as a large hunting knife for Jim Bowie by his brother. If you look at the Davie Crockett Frontier knife they look a lot like smaller Bowie Knives. I've read that the Bowie used at the Alamo and lost carried a 16" blade, really a short saber. The falchion swords look at lot like a Bowie knife, one statue of a German Saint is holding a Falchion that looks like a Bowie with a 16 inch blade.

[Andy62]

The Bowie that I have, that was marketed by the Franklin Mint as an authenticated model, has a blade of 8 inches. It has a really good feel and balance to it. Most sources that I have seen list the blade length from 6 to 12 inches. It would be my guess that is pretty close to the original and most replicas that I have seen are within that range. As we say though, this is a legend so there are all kinds of estimates out there - take your pick.

[Larry Wick]

Hi All,


I love history and I love knives, each has their own purpose. Every instructor of SSS has their own customized SSS knife. It is designed for the concepts of the Body Logic of SSS. There are no other knives like it. I also have an amazing knife that was made with some of the designs of a Bowie knife. Mine is longer, wider, and lighter, with a handle designed for my hand. It trully is one of a kind. My name is cut in to the blade as it will be my legacy to past on to another generation. Guys, thanks for the excellent research and history to one of the greatest times in American weapons, courage, and honor.

Be safe, Your friend, Larry

[MikeNY]

Larry the SSS knife sounds interesting, good concept. My favorite Bowie is a Lareado with a a blade just under 12" and the Laredo handle, it balances like a dagger and feels light because of the balance, big and fast. My other favories are 14" and 16" Bowies and I;ve collected others small 9" blades and those are fast and deadly and a few larger onces. The best overall length for fencing is about 14", Ihave always fenced saber.

If there was ever bad times and modern weapons not available I'd say get a Bowie knife, it is a modern version of what the amries of Alexander, Ceasar carried as well as the Saxons and Vikings with thier Sax and the Chinese Tongs had a close version with thier butterfly knife. Swords are nice but just not as useful, with a Bowie you can dig, cut fire wood or skin a deer, it is a fighting and survival weapon.

PS If not firearms are available, I'll take a large Bowie, Tomahawk, dagger and a Bow and Arrows, either a crossbow or a hunting bow Flat or recurve.

[tom]

I was reading about Bloody Kansas and some of the gawdawful massacres and hackings that happened. I suspect much was done with the Bowie. It's best to remember along with the romanticism historical or otherwise and thrill, the pure ugliness of a killing knife, the smell of bowels sliced open, the dirt, stench, terror, screaming that resulted from the participants' honor.

Thank goodness we're not there. Or anywhere near it.

Tom

[MikeNY]

Tom the secret of the Bowie knife is that it is a knife and hardened as such, a Bowie does not need to be flexible like a sword and uses mass and size for strength, it does not have the pressure on the blade a sword does. A sword must be flexible or it will break due to the length.

A Bowie will chop down a tree or chop wood, you do that with a Samurai sword and you can break the blade. A Bowie is designed to chop wood and that is just part of the design. It will also chop off limbs or a head much easier than a sword, due to the hardening process. It is lighter than a sword to carry, smaller and easier to carry.

Yeah I agree Tom must have smelled bad. But when you life is on the line not fighting back is not an option.

[DT man]

No doubt that at close range the Bowie Knife is a devastating weapon. They are illegal to carry for non sporting use, in most states. The weight and balance of the knife provides power and cutting ability far beyond any folding tactical knife. Anyone who doubts what a well made bowie can do should watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KICias1vqko&feature=player_embedded#

This type of knife makes an excellent sportsmen knife as well. It has been used by many hunters, fishermen and campers to handle cutting chopping and digging chores in daily outdoor activities.