All of the social programs will go on hold

[Andy62]

At this moment India is under seige with mutiple terrorists attacks going on. They are extremely well planned. This is what I was afraid of and the world wide economic crisis makes us all vulnerable. The terrortists' plan is and always has been to attack and destroy western civilization through distruction of the economies. Militarily you always attack weakenesses and voids. This changes the whole game.

[MikeNY]

AF1 well India has connections to the West and was part of the West. Alexander the Great conquered Iran and marched into India. After Alexander left the bactiran Greek General Demetrius conquered and occupied Northern India and replaced the Maurya Dynasty. One can say that India and it's Civilization is the West's brother. I had Indian friend's in College and they are very aware of that Tradition whereas we are mostly not.

Now the Middle East was historicaly and culturaly long a main part of the West. So the Islamic world too is part of the Western tradition. The Rise of Islam severed that connection, but the West has those old links to the Muslim World.

Gordon an army (military force) fills the void.

[Andy62]

AFI, Terminology becomes difficult,but India is one of the fastest growing commercial and technological countries in the world. Really I should have said modern western type industrial nations. I would also include China in that catagory. The goal of the terrorists is to destroy modern technological/industrial economies and replace them with Moslim Theocracies. All this stuff is not just about oil as has been misinterpreted by western politicians as it has been going on since the crusades and now they have found a opening with the finanicial and economic troubles of the target countries.

[Andy62]

The modus operandi is not the same as with those groups. The sophistication and planning of this operation is beyond their capability and most importantly they were seeking US and British hostages. International terrorism experts including James Woolsey, the former Director of the CIA, confirm that this was done to make an international statement and they are referring too it as India's 9/11.

[MikeNY]

Have been watching the TV and the terrorist Attacks in Mumbai (Bombay) and the seize of Western Hostages. Students Islamic Movement of India SIMI looks like the Terrorist Group respondsible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_Islamic_Movement_of_India Gordon is 100% right the West now includes China and the Emerging Economies as well as Japan. We in the US sometimes forget that Latin and South America are parts of the West.

My friend that was a Muslim has talked about SIMI and how in India there are now 150 Million Muslims. he reports that Indians Muslim have been having as many children as possible. They are unable to support the children and the kids beg on the streets there. That Hindu's have been Westernized and are having fewer children. He talks about Islam sending settlers into Latin and South America, Europe and North America. Immirgation now appears to be another weapon used by Terrorists.

[Andy62]

The attacks in India were a water shed event for me. The struggles going on are nothing new and have been going on for centuries,but globalization combined with advances in the technology of transportation and communication have changed things forever. Recent econmonic and power shifts in the world have accelerated the events of world history. The incidents of recent months and the power struggles developing in the world must be recognized and dealt with for the survival of society as we know it today.

[MikeNY]

Unfortunely there is an element inside Islam that see's the whole world as enemies; the unfortunete part is they have always ruled Islam and are the radical fringe. My friends were born and raised Muslim and converted. I read an article in the NY Times a few years ago; that up to 50% of Immirgrants from Muslim lands leave Islam. I'd think that now with the radical's coming to the US that trend will have stopped and reversed.

The problem we the West has is that the vast majority of Muslim people are the virtual slaves of the radical Islamists that have always ruled Islam. When we strike back as we must; we'll always hit innocent victims. islamists always place thier operations centers inside large urban centers with a hostage population around them, so innocent people are always killed and injured. I'd guess that if we strike and fail to kill and injure innocents that the Islamists will murder and make victims to blame the US.

Rather than Invasion and Military action like we used in Iraq, it would be better to use Counter-Terror. That would involve groups trained as what was once referred to as Hunter-Killer Groups in the CIA and Special Forces as well as hiring local professional criminals to carry out actions against islamist leaders. I am not sure if we have the politcal will to do this. It is much cheaper than Military action or regime change, has less change of injuring or killing innocents and banned under current Law in the USA. A .22 caliber bullet in the head leaves no collateral damage.

[Andy62]

Intelligence must use every conceivable method to accomplish it's goals. You have to deal with the most despicable of people. Much of the blame for the difficulties in Iraq goes to a lack of political will during the collapse of Communism where our overall Intelligence capability was weakened and our whole human Intelligence network and system were disbanded. At the start of the Iraq war we did not have an adequate Intelligence Network in operation to adequately evaluate the situation. Intelligence can be dirty a business. Our victory over the Nazis in Italy at the end of World War II was largely made possible by our putting the Mafia back in operation to defeat the Nazis. As with all intenational intelligence operations that strategy was not without side effects or future problems,but then so was the collapsing of our Intelligence capability at the end of The Cold War.

[Andy62]

That would be natural as the countries have a long history of conflict. Anybody who is capable of planning an attick that sophisticated could come up with a better "cover" strategy than that.

[MikeNY]

Gordon they captured several of the Terrorists, that is when Indian started to blame Pakistan. One was a Pakistani, and they have ID, Driver's Licenses etc on the living and the dead. Bad planning or disinformation planted on them.

[Andy62]

Mike, That had to be part of disinformation strategy. No organization who planned an attack of this magnitude would be that stupid particulary since it was a suicide [martyr] mission and none of the operatives were going to come out alive. Let's watch to see as the information on this attack comes out. There will probably be multiple levels of disinformation. Intelligence is the world's greatest game! As I have mentioned before Donald Trump has said,"New York Real Estate players are the world's smartest and most ruthless men"- NO WAY !

[MikeNY]

Gordon: The lone survivor is a member of Lashkar-e-Taiba, a creation of the Pakistani ISI intelligence service; to help fight its clandestine war against India over disputed Kashmir. As far as there being ten men, I doubt ten men could do this, ten targets, each with two men, means at least 20. And who or what moved the hit teams around? I'd suspect that the Terrorists exfiltrated with the freedom victims and had people helping them, driving them around, cache of weapons and ammo available. http://news.aol.com/article/police-pakistani-militants-behind-mumbai/261456?cid=12

We shall be seeing more of this, Counter Terror might soon be used against the Nations that sponsor Terror. Iran is sure to have had a hand in this attack in Mumbai, and the Pakistans ISI too. Counter Terror might take and use asassination, bombing and attcks like Mimbai on Muslim Cities might be coming as well as missle strike and pin point bombing.

This attack will hurt India and the entire Third World. Business needs a safe enviroment.

[Andy62]

That is true - it is equally important not to just accept those facts which will be obvious to most people. If you are so inclined to lift your thinking from a quantitative to a conceptual level and see what greater forces may be at work and using those obvious and apparent factors to motivate those people to a greater purpose on a higher level. In the case of India and Pakistan their historical conflicts and various factions in both countries combined with weak governments opens the possiblity of playing them against eachother. Prior to this latest attack India and Pakistan were overcoming many of the problems between them which was a threat to those who benefited from their historical conflict. If that conclict can be perpetuated then it weakens the forces against international terrorism in the area and benefits the terrorists which may have been the greater reason for this attack by bigger players in the game.

[Grant Douglass]

g'day it doesn't help much if Pakistan's intelligence agencies are training & sending this scum in,
how do you deal with terrorists when they are getting trained & financially backed by other countries .

i can remember in the early days just about very payer on the block was training , paying, & sending in terrorists or guerllas of one kind or another to destablise every second country that it suited.

Russia set up most of the middle eastern terrorist cells in the 70's.
how many govemnt s have donated arms, money , training to other countries, advisers" interogaters" & the whole 9 yards.
To get a grip on a place for strategic porposes or financial gain?

You can bet that if they are doing it then odds on we or our friends are doing the same to some degree.
Alot of countries would rather fund a private war then actually get seen publically doing the dirty work.

I can remember many a war in some hole that was getting backed by someone else.
maybe someone should be asking a few serious questions to the countires lesaders who back & train these scum.
It's going to be a long complicated ordeal for everyone.
digger
no easy answer,

[MikeNY]

Well said Grant War by Proxy. Iran is the current big player in financing, training and sporing terror and replaced Russia in that role. The Coach changed but the game remains the same. Pakistan is really a troubled nation, the Military resent that the ISI Intelligence Service sponsors Terrorist Groups that the Army is fighting. The ISI helped set up the Taliban to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan during the Russian Invasion. The USA and Saudi Arabia paid, China, Israel and some European nations also joined and Pakistan's ISI and Military ran the game, we paid Pakistan developed resources so the Sponsors had plauseable deniability.

As the ISI grew the Taliban; Pakistans Military sponsored other Groups in Afghanistan, like the Northern Forces that later fought a Civil War with the Taliban.

Here in the US the Congress has more or less banned using Counter Terror and it is illegal to hire Foriegn citizens to work for the CIA if they are bad people or criminals; plus no use of asassination of anyone. The Congress did not like Military or Paramilitary Hunter Killer Groups so Special Forces and CIA armed response is more or less banned.

[Andy62]

The gauntlet has been thrown and it is going to be a complicated,long, and bloody experience. Pakistan is a very troubled country in a very troubled part of the world. The current Prime Minister's Wife was assasinated and there have been numerous terrorists attacks there. Pakistan is the home to numerous terrorists organizations including Al Quaeda. India and Pakistan are both nuclear powers and are both key to what happens with the war in Afghanistan. They both have weak governments. Russia is not out of the game with the events in Georgia and it's building of alliances with others and combined military operations with them. When you talk about proxy wars you have to look at the Gulf region where Russia is backing Iran and we are committed to Israel. I hate to say it,but it looks like we are facing a major escalation in the war on terror and maybe a re escalation of the cold war.

[MikeNY]

Pirates Chase, Fire on US Cruise Ship Article
http://news.aol.com/article/luxury-cruise-ship-outruns-pirates/264468

Islamic Terrorist Pirates Article
http://news.aol.com/article/you-cant-stop-us-pirate-leader-says/263971

Somilia is also a haven for Al Qeada and had Al Qeada Training camps there.

[MikeNY]

Looks like a bleak future and rising Terror for the USA.

Nuclear or Bioterror Attack on U.S. Likely by 2013, Panel Warns
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459927,00.html
here is the nuclear and bioloogical terror report mentioned http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/WMDReport.pdf

Mumbai Police Home In on Attack Mastermind WSJ Articlem on terror mastermind in Pakistan
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122823715860872789.html


Gordon has been right on; we are living in a changing world and need to prepare.

[Andy62]

The threats in the world have been intensifying. Look what has been going on just in the last few months.

1. Russia and China have negotiated an oil for capital deal and have had joint military training maneuvers.
2. Russia has invaded Georgia.
3. Russia has negotiated an oil for nuclear technology deal with Iran and Iran has successfully fired a
missile capable of reaching Israel.
4. Russia's President has just completed a tour of Latin America that included a visit to Cuba and
Venezuela. Venezuela and Russia have just negotiated a oil for nuclear technology deal and are
currently engaged in joint military training exercises
5. The terrorists attacks in India.

[MikeNY]

U.S. says Pakistani-based group likely hit Mumbai
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081202/india_nm/india368316

Yeah that US Government Report notes the US will be hit within the next five years with a nuclear or biological weapon. That is bad!

[Andy62]

I hate to say it,but it looks to me like the biggest threat over the next decade will be terrorism and not the world economy,however, the two will feed off of each other.

[Andy62]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459927,00.html

[MikeNY]

The Spanish flu pandemic of 1918 has been reproduced in labs, if that falls into terrorist hands there is no cure and it could be weaponized and made more lethal. My guess is a nuclear is what the Terrorists want, but they might have bio-weapons more available. I can see Obama failing to strike back after a Terrorist Attack on the USA as he ponders what to do before talks. Let hope his Clinton Advisors can steer him clear of an error.

[MikeNY]

As opposed to that tough cowboy George W. Bush, who ponders nothing and strikes back at the wrong countries.

Your right Obama wanting to Invade Pakistan makes him totally differnt than Bush.

Afghanistan wasn't the wrong country, it was where El Qeada was located and used as it's main base plus the Afghan Taliban Government sponsored them. Saddam's disinformation campaign fooled the CIA, British, French, Russian and all the various World Intelligence Agencies; plus once Iraq fell the London Times found bin Laden's Iraqi Intelligence Payroll Records, he was on the payroll. Saddam was paying bin Laden off the way one pays the Mafia for protection.

We went into the war with Iraq over a failure of intelligence; the Liberals in both Parties dismantling Intelligence hurt the USA.

[Andy62]

Afghanistan has been the grave yard of conquerors throughout history. Alexander the Great, and Ghengis Khan among others failed in their attempts and let's not forget Russias ten year fiasco there. The country has never developed a central government and is ruled by warlords. The population is uneducated and the terrain which is loaded with caves is very nountainous. Its poppy crop generates at least $500 million per year for various terrorists causes.The climate is extreme and horrible for military operations. In my opionion Iraq was a much better location to build a base in the gulf as it had an educated population, cenral government and terrain that was desirable for military operations. I look at the latest terrorist attack in India as an effort to play India and Pakistan against each other in an effort to divert the war in Afghanistan. I also believe that all international terrorists organizations use each other and work together and they have been since the early 1980s with the Terrorists training camps in Lebanon. With the weakened economies of the modern industrial/technological countries they will probably take this as their time to make their move.

[Andy62]

The difficulty factor of that strategy would be Iraq X 1000. Read the Robert Gates quote in the thread on the troops not leaving Iraq. Do you think that will be used as an excuse to change strategies? It will be interesting to see! Remember we are dealing with politicians.

[MikeNY]

The London Times has reported bin Laden is in Iran, in Tehran. Since they are his sponsor Obama will have to Invade Pakistan and Iran to get them all. Cowboy Obama looks a lot like Bush now. Obama did not define what Invade Pakistan meant to him, sounded like Regime Change just like iraq.

The simplest solution was banned by Congress; send Special Forces and CIA Hunter Killer Teams after targets, also use local resources for Intelligence and Action. Rather than following the rules the terrorists and Left demand we need to act more like the Mafia or as the Russians. Spike Millitant News Media outlets and put a price on being a Militant and supporter.

We must respect the Arab traditions and culture; it deamnds that we eliminate bin Laden and his whole extended family, same for each member of El Qeada.

We need to be smarter, the Democrat in Charge of Iraq, Paul Bremer, dismissed and fired the entire Iraqi Army, Intelligence and Police Corps. We should have had a seemless transition and took over thier pay. Keeping the vast majority and rooting out Sadamists. Just plugged in an Iraqi General and had Elections ready to go and withdraw American Forces.