john, what would you say is high volume for performing Atlas Push-Ups?

[John Peterson]

Hey Friends,


I just received an e-mail asking me "John, how many Atlas Style Push-Ups would you consider to be high volume training?" I'm addressing it now because I have been asked variations of the same question about Atlas Push-Ups many times in the past. The truth is, I don't have a specific answer. I know Atlas himself advocated that his advanced students perform 200 each day to be performed in multiple sets morning and evening. So obviously Mr. Atlas who recommended 100 daily as standard practice, and 200 if one is truly serious about superior development, thought that 200 was indeed 'High Volume'. Personally, I agree if they are performed Dynamic Tension style where the muscles are intentionally tensed at medium to high tension while they are moving, believe me, 200 performed in that fashion is then very high volume.

My friend Big Jim Forystek and his sons Jimmy, Johnny, and Jed each perform 100 Panther Stretch (Atlas) Push-Ups as part of the PowerFlex Training System each day. Each man utilizes far more tension than is needed to merely perform a push-up and as a result each of these men has superb development. In fact, a week ago when I was asked pretty much the same question on another e-mail, I asked Jimmy Forystek how many he did each day and he said, "John, do 100 each day. I usually do 30, 40, & 30 for the 100 total."

Now guys I bring this up for a reason. When we perform Atlas Style/Panther Flex Push-Ups we are performing an Extended Range Push-Up with added tension. . Though standard Atlas Push-Ups between chairs utilize a little less bodyweight than standard Push-Ups on the floor, the added range of motion and the added tension make the exercise far more difficult and beneficial. So for that reason I'd say anywhere from 100 to 200 is more than enough to qualify as high volume.

---John Peterson

[mts]

Interesting points. I've never added tension to PCs (except as prescribed for the knee bend in M7). I do 100 Atlas pushups a day, but I'll try some added tension.

[keith james]

Hi John

I must admit i never do less than 500 reps of the atlas pushup, in any of the variations.

It also does not matter which training programme i am doing at the time, whether it is PYTP, Powerflex, or any variation of the transformetrics training regimes.

But i honestly think that it depends on the individual.

All in the best of health.

KEITH JAMES.

[stingray]

My understanding of the Panther Flex was that there was no additional tension added. I would love to have this clarified.

[MikeNY]

stingray my reading of Big Jim in the Powerflex book makes it clear that he advocated extra tension. The more muscular tension you get more development, see page 14 of Powerflex starting at the paragraph entitled "Number of repetitions" and going on and read page 15 in Powerflex.

JP has a "training memo" on page 74 of The Miracle Seven with instructions for muscle tension.

Hope this helps you my friend.

[John Peterson]

Hey guys,

The more tension that is added the fewer reps that are necessary or possible. This is common sense. And Keith James, one animal to another, you're an animal my friend:highfive:. And I mean that in the best sense of the word.

---John Peterson

P.S. Stingray, When I worked with Big Jim on "Power Flex," he was totally on board with the concept of adding tension to reduce the number of reps necessary. In fact, Big Jim thinks that excessively high reps, "are only necessary if you don't know what you are doing." Which I agree with unless you are using Atlas Push-Ups for cardio. And believe me, when somebody can knock off 500 Atlas push-Ups in 0ne 20 minute set they don't need any other cardio because the Atlas Push-Up is the worlds best and most direct cardio exercise in my opinion.

---John Peterson

[stingray]

Thanks for clearing this up for me John. This is going to change my workouts. I thought that I remembered asking Big Jim that very question when I was first starting with the Powerflex workouts and he told me that no additional tension was necessary. Maybe I misunderstood what he was saying. It will make the push ups more of a challenge.

So, the idea is just to flex the chest and upper body while doing them? Do you add extra resistance while going to the down position also?

[keith james]

Hi Joh & everyone

Firstly, thanks John for the positive reply.

I must admit that if it wasn't for this website and the people on it, i don't think that i would have belived that a great looking physique is possible by just using your bodyweight.

Thanks again.

KEITH JAMES.

[Greg Newton]

Hey Keith,

Since you regularly do 500 reps in the Atlas pushups daily, can you share with us some of the benefits thereof. Over the summer I got where I was doing pushups in the 300-400 range, but not yet 500 and not a single variety such as the Atlas. I am curious on your take as to what the pluses are to take it up to that level and if there are any negatives you experienced.

By the way, 500 Atlas pushups is quite an accomplishment!

Respectfully,

Greg Newton

[ben alexander]

I found that, for me, the magic number of push-ups (Atlas or otherwise), was about 150-200. Any more, I found that mentally, I got overwhelmed mentally at the idea of having to reach those number.

Performing my push-ups slowly, or adding tension, is a great way of getting more benefit, whilst taking up the same amount of time as my regular workout.

Ben

[stingray]

Here is one of the threads in which I asked the question about tension with the push up.

http://www.flexerciseworkout.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=20&func=view&id=465&catid=6#465

I think this discussion was also on the Powerflex portion of this forum a couple of years ago.

[vegetus25]

John/guys,

So what are the tradeoffs of adding tension and performing fewer reps vs. no added tension and higher reps?

Which method is better for gaining size? Why?

If someone can not perform a lot of reps per set should they build up their reps to a certain number before adding tension?

Should tension be added throughout the rep or just to the positive or negative portion?

When adding tension to reps how close to failure should a person work? For example, if a person’s max is 40 reps, how many should they perform when adding medium tension? Higher tension?...half max?...vary from day to day?...??

God bless,

Veg

Please read all of the above w/ the thought I realize this varies from person to person, be your own trainer, etc. …just wondering

[John Peterson]

Hey Guys,

I talked with Big Jim about this on Wednesday. He and I are in total agreement. Naturally when someone is starting out, performing an Atlas/Panther Stretch Push-Up without added tension offers enough challenge for the vast majority of people., But take it from a man that can perform 500 Atlas Push-Ups in one set (with no additional tension added) that with adequate tension added to the muscles for each rep, sets of 50 can be and are unbelievably challenging. Naturally, there is nothing wrong at all with making the Atlas/Panther Flex Push-Up a superior cardio exercise by performing it for 20 consecutive minutes as I have done without added tension. But for strength and development, adding tension to the muscles makes it an ultimate strengthening and sculpting exercise. Still, if you want to perform it without added tension and perform extremely high reps then you should go for it.

And Stingray, please go to the bottom of page 44 of the PowerFlex Course and read the following.

REMEMBER: the key to success with Flexercises isn't the number of repetitions you do, but the amount of tension you use while doing them.


MAKE SURE YOU CHECK IT OUT RAY, I HAVE QUOTED WORD FOR WORD.


---John Peterson

[stingray]

So is the tension in addition to the tension created by dipping lower than the chair, or is it tension in addition to that. Here is a quote from Jim on a thread in the Powerflex forum.

"The additional Tension comes from doing full range of motion Panther flexes. From the up position all the way down to a little lower than the chairs down low then back up to starting position. Many when they do push-ups only go half way down I think Hershel walker said he used to do like a thousand push-ups a day but they were only like half push-ups no full range which will not give you the real tension for development. Doing the push ups with proper form, going through to the full range and consintrating on the muscles being worked even though the push up will take only a couple seconds to perform - down up- just like stated in the book is the development will FLOOR YOU. Its when people get careless and sloppy with out proper form ( you know the back is'nt straight, the butt is sticking up way in the air they only go half way or three quarters of the way down) they lack consintration - thats how you don't get the proper tension."
Jimmy will chime in I'm sure!
-Jim Forystek-

Thanks.

[John Peterson]

Hey Stingray,

When performing Atlas/PantherFlex Push-Ups it's a good idea to descend slowly while under complete control and to comfortably stretch the muscles to their full range of motion. In order to do this correctly the muscles will remain under tension during the entire descent just as Big Jim says .If someone were to perform Atlas Push-Ups fast and without tension during the descent, they very likely would have a bounce at the bottom and over time would injure themselves. Not a good thing. For this reason it normally requires 1-minute to do 20 to 25 Atlas/Panther Stretch Push-Ups while under moderate tension.

Also, consider that just as using high tension DVR will dramatically slow ones speed of execution when performing the Seven Tiger Moves, the same is absolutely true with Atlas/PantherFlex Push-Ups. If you add a great deal of tension to the movement it will slow you down and you will not be able to perform as many repetitions but your time under tension will dramatically increase per repetition. Still, there is no reason to have to choose one over the other. I never have. So why not integrate both approaches from time to time? You can only benefit.


---John Peterson

[gs300tx]

So the slower I do the push ups the greater the tension?

[Hank_Z]

Does it make sense for a newbie to push-ups to first do the push-ups without intentionally adding extra tension to get to a "reasonable number" of consecutive reps...assuming there is such a thing as a "reasonable number"? I can don only 15 consecutive reps, so intentionally adding tension might limit me to know more than 5 or so reps?

By the way, I experimented today with intentionally adding a lot of tension when doing push-ups against my kitchen counter. I usually do 25 reps or so very easily. With much tension, however, I could only do 6 consecutive reps.

I'm finding that tension makes far more difference than I'd ever dreamed.

- Hank

[gs300tx]

WOW!!! these super slow push ups are amazing!!!! I did 10 regular push ups in a minute and boy did i feel it!! It almost feels like bench presssing

[tom]

A slow cadence may or may not be the same as adding tension.

A slow pushup, done the superslow method, merely takes out the bounce and momentum.

An added tension pushup will be slower than one without the added tension, but it means the person is intentionally tensing up the muscles, as in a DVR, while doing the exercise.

They may look the same and be combined as one wishes, but those are two different thoughts. The first can be done mindlessly, the second requires mental presence.

Tom

[tony84]

Sorry about responding so late to the original question. My opiniion on where to start for high volume is to first find out your max reps, and then times that number by 10. So if you can do 12 push ups, start by doing 120. Thats just my two cents.

Tony

[Nathan]

Hey Friends,

I have to say that if you add tension into you push-ups like John suggests you will find you get the same work done in less time. Than if you had not added tension. This works extremely well for people that have time limits or if you just want the added benfits that you can and will receive from them. So over all I am in total agreement with what John has said. Anyway All the best my friends.


---Nathan

[gs300tx]

I wonder if there is a way to know how how many high tension push ups you would need to do to match your current push up workout. A conversion chart maybe? I can normally do around 225 push ups in a workout, if I use high tension push ups I wonder how many push ups that would equal to.

[mts]

In my opinion, you can't measure tension as it relates to how many reps it will subtract from your normal PC volume. As you get stronger AND your ability to apply tension improves (as it will with practice), you may actually find that reps decrease because you're able to apply more and more tension as you become adjusted to it.

My early shots at DVRs with high tension used much less tension than I'm able to create now with practice. I know for me, the idea of adding tension to a PC is a little foreign and I know I'll be able to increase the tension as I get more used to it.

[keith james]

Hey Keith,

Since you regularly do 500 reps in the Atlas pushups daily, can you share with us some of the benefits thereof. Over the summer I got where I was doing pushups in the 300-400 range, but not yet 500 and not a single variety such as the Atlas. I am curious on your take as to what the pluses are to take it up to that level and if there are any negatives you experienced.

By the way, 500 Atlas pushups is quite an accomplishment!

Respectfully,

Greg Newton


Hi Greg,

First let me say that i am sorry for the dealy in repling to your thread. In respect to the pluses for doing the atlas pushup I, i find that the frontal part of my shoulders look more defined and that doing the normal atlas pushups i find hit the upper part of the chest, which i find stands out more, the effect i get after doing them is a great feel. I can now do them at 50 reps per set.

Before i could do the Liederman pushups at 100 reps per set with a 1 minute rest between sets and i would do 10 sets of this exercise.

Now to the negatives, i find that before i tried them to wide and my shoulder started to hurt. now i do the Atlas pushups, no matter what variation with my hands just wider than my shoulders.

What i do now is do a pushup of your choice for maximum reps and then rest for around 2 minutes, then carry on like this until all of your reps are done. This is how i do my workout now, Or do half in the morning and the other half in the evening, or through the day. I have done it this way as well.

Thanks again for the kind comments, Greg, any questions just let me know, Thanks again and all the best in your training.

Keith James.

[tomman]

Great posts! I have found that adding tension during the push ups adds a new level of efficiency and muscle control. I try to pull myself slowly to the floor utilizing the back muscles and then pushing back up with chest and tris. The tension seems to me to be purposful flexing of the muscles engaged when doing the work. I try to focus on keeping the muscle flexed and tense to "add tension" Hope this helps.

Regards

Tom