Too Much Fruit?

[THE LONE WOLF]

A friend of mine with diabetes told me he was advised by his doctor to watch his fruit intake. That got me to thinking about eating fruit in general. I love fruit and I eat four or five pieces a day. To me fruit is nature's candy. However, can eating a lot of fruit in and of itself lead to diabetes? This is something I have thought about since my friend told me what his doctor told him. I try to include as many colors in my diet as possible so to speak and fruit is a big part of that approach.

[Viking Dan]

Is this the book?

A Doctor's Proven New Home Cure for Arthritis (http://www.amazon.com/Doctors-Proven-Home-Cure-Arthritis/dp/0132163756/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228525801&sr=1-1)

[mike]

I have irritible bowl syndrome and to get in the requisite fiber i have at least 4 or 5 pieces of fruit as well. the only major concern to me is the amount of sugar. Essentially eating sugar rich foods and leading an inactive lifestyle can cause diabetes. Since regular exercise increases insulin sensitivity I don't think you have much to worry about.

[JoeJustice]

The sugars in fruit are called fructose. It has a similar effect as sucrose (table sugar) if taken in the same amounts. That's why High Fructose Corn Syrup is a problem. But you need to look at the fruit as a whole.

For the most part fruit is water, fiber and fructose (along with vitamins and minerals). Fiber deceases the insulin spike of sugars and the amount of fructose in most pieces of fruit is less than a single package of table sugar. Also bare in mind that sucrose is used directly by the body while fructose must be convert to sucrose to be of use in bodily functions.

All of that being said, the positive effects are very, very high in fruits while sucrose goes right to the bloodstream. Have you ever heard the term "empty calories"? That's what that is referring to. A piece of fruit has fiber, vitamins, minerals and sugars, nothing empty about that at all.

There are some exceptions. Bananas are higher in sugar and lower in other nutrition. And in many dried fruits the fibers are converted to sugars or starches in the dehydration process, so they should be avoided.

As long as you are healthy and active I can't think of a single negative effect of eating lots of fruit.

-Joe

[reg]

i would advise your friend to get another doctor!

[Viking Dan]

Here's a summary of his diet plan:

http://www.kickas.org/medical/gcamp.shtml

[divebomber]

Joe, I totally second every word you have stated! Very insightful post...

The only scenario I can think of where fruit intake should be severely limited is if you're on a ketogenic, very low carb diet. That is not to say that fruits will lead to health problems in this situation, only that they may nullify the proposed weight-loss mechanism of this diet (not because of the fructose contained in fruit, just because of the general carb content which will pull you out of ketosis). In this case, better stick to lots of leafy and cruciferous veggies.

Tom, if you're interested in a more current book on vegan raw food, have a look at "The 80/10/10 Diet" (link: http://www.amazon.com/80-10-Diet/dp/1893831248/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228545044&sr=8-1). I haven't read the book (and although I'm vegan I've never tried raw foodism/fruitarianism), but the reviews look promising.

[Alan_OldStudent]

There is a pretty good article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetes) in Wikipedia about diabetes. Diabetes is a group of diseases or syndromes that interfere with metabolism (http://www.answers.com/metabolism) of sugars in the blood stream. This comes about because either the body quits producing insulin (type 1 diabetes) or develops resistance to the effects of insulin (type 2). The disease can be controlled but is usually not considered to be curable.

When one has a problem regulating blood sugars, serious complications can arise, such as increased risk of heart attack and strokes. It also affects circulation, resulting in gangrene. The leading cause of non-traumatic adult amputations is medical complications of diabetes. It also is implicated in end-stage renal disease, severe pain in the nerves in certain parts of the body (diabetic neuropathy), blindness (diabetic retinopathy), and a severe life-threatening crisis known as diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA), often resulting in coma and death.

Although not usually considered curable, diabetes can be controlled and the sufferer may be able to lead a near-normal or normal life. This involves lifestyle changes and, in many cases, various medical treatments may become necessary.

Lifestyle changes include such things as exercise, tobacco and alcohol abstention, a sensible diet, and it may also include the necessity to check blood sugar levels up to 5 times a day.

Although fruit is a healthy food and has its place in the diet of a diabetic, caution must be exercised. The diabetic can eat moderate amounts of fruits or other sweets if he or she is mindful of blood sugar levels. Because the autonomic systems of the body can no longer regulate blood sugar, it requires conscious intervention on the part of the patient as part of a comprehensive diet plan, perhaps by covering fruit eaten with extra insulin, or other measures such as exercising vigorously to burn it off, or limiting portions eaten at a particular time.

Quite frequently, a person finds out he or she has diabetes after having been admitted to the hospital because of a severe life-threatening sudden and unexpected episode of diabetic ketoacidosis. Or generally feeling horrible leads one to a doctor's office who may do a blood glucose check. Such patients are often admitted to the hospital for emergency measures to deal with out-of-control blood sugars and patient education. The patient may be sent to a social worker who is experienced in helping the new diabetic deal with the lifestyle implications and a hospital dietician who specializes in diets for diabetics, as part of diabetes education.

In a person without diabetes, the body is able to keep blood sugars in a safe range. The curse of the diabetic is that his or her body can no longer do an adequate job of this.

The American Diabetes Association (http://www.diabetes.org) has a web site with a lot of information about this challenging chronic condition which affects millions of Americans, especially Americans of certain ethnic backgrounds, notably African-American, Native-American, and Pacific Islanders. However, all ethnicities suffer from this condition.



Regards,

Alan

[JoeJustice]

What Alan wrote is worth reading. Fruit does effect your blood sugar. Too much fruit will make you fat. Calories in vs. calories out and all of that. If you are diabetic you need to monitor that stuff to be safe. But don't put a candy bar and an apple in the same category because they both effect blood sugar.

Again... As long as you are healthy and active I can't think of a single negative effect of eating lots of fruit. I could be wrong, but I've never heard of someone developing diabetes from too much fruit.

-Joe

P.S. Fruit juice, just like dried fruit, is fruit in a concentrated form. You drop all of the fiber and you're left with sugar and water. Actually fruit juice is similar to soda in sugar content. So you do have to keep an eye on the amount of fruit juice you drink.

[Hank_Z]

hi

...Telling someone to not eat fruit because you will get diabetes or some other disease is just wrong in my opinion. I will say that i am well read tho. Why the thing i really hate is people hiding behind science all the time to claim something great or fantastic.
Tom :)

Whoa...Tom. You're apparently having a bad day. We all do at times.

1. Alan's post said absolutely nothing about eating fruit causing diabetes. If Alan's post does say that, someone needs to let me know. I've read it more than once. But I'm fallible.

2. While your post kept attacking "science," science is based on creating tests to try to disprove hypotheses. Many people who don't understand what science is write very similarly to the way you did in your post. I'm not saying you don't understand what science is, but your post didn't display any such understanding.

Humans can use science for good or bad, but it inherently seeks to understand reality through the scientific process. Using only "common sense", on the other hand, people have killed others who did not believe that the stars and planets obviously rotate around the earth, have killed women who were obviously witches if they drowned when thrown into water in which anyone would drown, have killed millions of Jews because Jews were obviously not full human beings the way like Aryans are, created and supported the institution of slavery because common sense told even U.S. presidents and some of the finest thinkers (when they used the scientific process) that black people were obviously sub-human animals, etc. Common sense has told other people that they were justified in killing those who do not believe in what is obviously the right religion: that of the killers, of course.

In an example relevant to nutrition...the thrust of Alan's post...most Costa Rica people who live in small towns such as mine "know"...because of "common sense"...that their meals of rice, beans, and other vegetables are healthy and can't make people fat. It's obvious. But...some of the ingredients they use in cooking make even the most nutritious vegetables full of bad fats and calories. People get fat and look like me...and the locals are certain that the food doesn't play a material role. After all, they're using their common sense. My medical doctor...who trained in the U.S. for several years and who bases here guidance and treatment on science...told me that just two days ago.

3. Whether it's you or another participant who is training to be a physical trainer, I'd run the other direction from a trainer who just used his "common sense" and believes that scientists are "hiding behind" science. I'd hope that others would run, too.

Common sense definitely has its place. One of its most important roles is understanding what science and the scientific process are. Common sense is also important in other ways, including in areas in which there has been little or no scientific research. Or when scientific tests support contradictory hypotheses.

Tom, I started to post this in a private email to you. I've tried to make sure I haven't attacked you personally in any way. Again, we all have our bad days. Definitely me! I've written and said things in haste that I wish so much I could have taken back before anyone saw or heard them.

But I believe it would be dangerous and irresponsible for me to let a post to this forum ridicule science (and, by definition, the scientific process) without strongly stating the danger of that way of thinking and living.

Some people who read these posts may be young people who don't understand what science is and could be taken in much more easily by people who push steroids, cigarettes, etc. while assuring them that it's "common sense" these substances are not dangerous. "Steroids are the way to go...just look at the results people are getting with steroids." "Scientists are hiding behind all of the research about smoking cigarettes. Let me tell you...my grandfather and uncle both smoked all of their lives...and both lived into their 90s." Etc.

Finally, Tom...I'm bet a modest sum of money that you indeed use scientific findings the vast majority of the time. You seem like a bright guy who simply got his chain pulled for whatever reason. That is, I'll bet you're entirely human.

Have a great weekend.

- Hank

[Hank_Z]

P.S. I looked at the posts that were prior to Alan's and found no reference to scientists saying that eating a lot of fruit causes diabetes. If I'm incorrect and there is such a reference, I'd like to see it.

-Hank

[JoeJustice]

Donna, I'm not really following what you're saying... Fruit does affect blood glucose, you don't need a test to prove that. But a rise in glucose doesn't cause diabetes, otherwise we would all have diabetes as soon as we drank our first drop of breast milk. And we'd all go into diabetic comas the first time we drank a Coke. Diabetes is caused when the body can no longer produce insulin and that glucose spike can therefore not be controlled.

The Lone Wolf's question was, "Will fruit cause diabetes?" And some here seem to be nterpreting that as, "Should diabetics eat fruit?" Those are to totally different questions!

First things first, if a doctor tells a diabetic patient not to eat a certain food, that doesn't mean that that food CAUSED the diabetes! It means that now that that patient has diabetes, he/she should avoid that food.

For the third time... As long as you are healthy and active I can't think of a single negative effect of eating lots of fruit. If you have diabetes then you're not "healthy" you have a conic disease that needs to be managed. I suppose if you were very inactive and ate 5,000 calories worth of fruit and fruit juice a day, then you could probably develop diabetes from it. But you would also be morbidly obese and therefore not "healthy and active".

Just to kind of bring this into perspective. And apple has 55 calories and 11g sugar. A Snickers bar has 280 calories and 30g sugar. If someone developed Type 2 Diabetes due to their diet, I'm pretty confident in saying that it's because they ate too many Snickers not too many apples. (But there are other factors as well, I'm simplifying)

-Joe

[JoeJustice]

Hank,

What Alan wrote is good to read because he explained what diabetes actually is. Diabetics have to monitor their diet and lifestyle closely because of their condition. I think this is important to know so you can understand why they have to be careful of foods that people without diabetes would not. i.e. fruits

-Joe

[Alan_OldStudent]

Oh my!

Brothers and sisters,

I'm afraid I have not been as clear as I could have been. I probably tripped over my tonsils whilst writing my last post. So let me be clear about what I meant to say.

http://www.alanstancliff.com/images/icons/cowblink.gif

Eating fruit, or even eating sugar, does not cause diabetes.

******************************************

Really, no one knows exactly what causes diabetes, although obesity and lack of exercise is associated with increased risk of type 2 diabetes.

Type 2 diabetes, where the body becomes resistant to the blood-sugar regulatory effects of insulin, causing eventual shut-down of insulin producing ability, used to be called adult-onset diabetes, because so few kids got it. But over the past 20 or so years, more and more kids get it, a trend that seems to be associated with a sharp rise in childhood obesity and physical inactivity.

Some studies suggest type 1 diabetes may be an autoimmune response where the immune system attacks the insulin-producing cells in the pancreas (islets of Langerhans). This causes the body to produce not enough or, more likely, no insulin. That breaks the automatic feedback blood-sugar control mechanism.

Once you have diabetes, you have a serious chronic medical condition. Key to minimizing the risk of diabetes is a healthy lifestyle, a healthy diet, exercise, avoiding tobacco, avoiding alcohol or using it moderately, etc. But eating sugar or fruit in and of itself does not cause diabetes or raise your risk unless it is done to such an extreme that it contributes to obesity or other health problems.

Once you have diabetes, you must moderate your consumption of sugars and carbohydrates. Note I said "moderate," not avoid. Carbohydrates, after all, are an important part of our diet.

Although diabetes is a serious chronic medical condition, people with diabetes can lead a relatively healthy life with a relatively normal lifespan. That, however, requires controlling blood sugars consciously, as the diabetic body no longer has the feedback mechanisms necessary to do that automatically.

http://www.alanstancliff.com/images/divide2.gif

Finally, I love fruit and I eat lots of fruit (and vegetables too). As Joe and others here imply, a bit of common sense is wanted here. You don't have to be a PhD to know what a sensible diet is. And if you do have diabetes or other medical condition requiring specialized dietary knowledge, you can get a referral to a qualified dietician or nutritionist from the doctor treating the condition.

When a healthy person with healthy metabolism eats something with a lot of carbohydrate (and sugar in all forms belong to the group of carbohydrates), the body scavanges excess sugar from the blood and stores it elsewhere for later use. Then, when the body needs higher blood sugar level, it retrieves the stored sugars. The healthy body has a feedback mechanism to keep blood sugars in check. Diabetes is where that feedback mechanism falls apart. It works a bit like your thermostat: when the temperature is too high, the thermostat turns off the heat, and when it becomes too cold, the thermostat turns the heat back down, trying to maintain an equilibrium.

http://www.alanstancliff.com/images/divide4.gif

So here's my idea on diet:

**************

Eat a wide variety of foods. Try to eat nutrient-dense foods. That means moderate your consumption of highly-refined foods. Lean heavily towards plant-based things. If you are a vegetarian, take a vitamin supplement with B12 in it. Eliminate or moderate alcohol consumption. Eat a diet that leaves you reasonably satisfied, that makes you feel good, that enables you to have good bowel movements, that you enjoy, and that is compatible with your cultural preferences.

**************

When you eat something, be grateful that something died to become food and express that thankfulness by being kindly. Understand that you too will die and become food for something else.

http://www.alanstancliff.com/images/icons/violets.png

We are both the honored guests and main course in that great feast of the life cycle.



Regards,

Alan

[JoeJustice]

Thanks Alan for your posts. You always say what I wish I'd said :)

And he uses such pretty pictures! :)

On a totally different tangent... I don't like the advice on the link you just posted. It's all "party line" stuff. Just regurgitation of USDA information. They even mention eating low fat dairy which is a big mistake. All of that reduced fat stuff is a big contribution to why obesity has sky rocketed over the last 20 years. They take out the fat and add sugar because the stuff tastes so bad! Fat helps you feel full and has loads of health benefits, so without it people get hungry more often. The whole American Diet need to be redone and the Food Pyramid as presented by the USDA is not and optimal way to eat.

Again, my opinion. Rant over :)

-Joe

[Alan_OldStudent]

I just read this from a dietician: http://www.providence.org/oregon/health_resource_centers/nutrition/askanexpert_fruit.htm

Thanks Alan for your posts. You always say what I wish I'd said :)

Thanks for your kind words. That site you link to looks very sensible to me.

Regards,

Alan

[JoeJustice]

Well then, the only way to know if eating "too much fruit" is good or bad for you is to have your glucose levels checked or to have a HgbA1C performed.

Send me your blood :knife: :)

How many times now have you wanted my blood? :vampire: Yer one freaky lady Mrs. Donna! One freaky lady!

-Joe :rotfl:

[Free]

It is important to note, that modern fruit is highly hybridized to concentrate the sugar content, essentially turning it into candy. If you were to forage for fruit in the wild, you would get it infrequently, rather un-ripe (because the birds and other animals would get it first) and it would be very high in fiber, and low in sugar (more like our hybridized vegetables).

I am one who ruined my health eating too much fruit many years ago, and I don't know if I will ever get back to a level where I can say that I am perfectly well. I would highly advise that one moderate their intake of modern fruit (candy) as a small part of a balanced diet, and avoid all extreme diets.

I am not going to say that eating fruit will cause diabetes, but it can definitely have devastating effects on your digestive system, and overall health, if you take it to extremes, such as Frutarianism.

[mike]

I have to say I'm 100% behind the notion that preventative medicine has fallen completely out of our societies toolbox. Doctors are placed in the unfortunate situation of trying to remedy an epidemic in any way they can. A doctor is stuck trying to do anything in their power to keep a person 'healthy' while that very person is busy destroying their body with bad food and an unactive lifestyle. Ultimately society as a whole needs place a greater emphasis on personal responsibility before any real changes will occur.

[Alan_OldStudent]

Hey gtlaau,

No need to apologize to me. I didn't take anything you said personally.

It's very difficult to communicate with written words alone, and I often find myself having to explain what I met.

We've had a good discussion and have learned from each other. But we don't have to agree with each other in order to be friends.

We're all for healthy living and common sense, and I certainly don't think I have all the answers.

Regards,

Alan

[tom]

Keep in mind that another way to describe a diabetic is being insulin resistant. That comes about from having too much insulin, becoming resistant to it, and too much insulin is caused by too much sugar in the blood. I'm talking about Type 2 here.

There were many crisscrossing, unrelated thoughts/opinions at the start of the thread, but I think it gelled pretty well with what Donna, Joe, and Alan said.

One thing, Alan, and I agree on moderation, but as to carbohydrates being and important part of our diet, yes, culturally, but as I understand it there is no such thing as a carbohydrate deficiency. There is such a thing as a protein deficiency and a fat deficiency. On the other other hand, I liked that you mentioned cultural preference. Diet is so much a social, psychological, emotional thing, too, not to be overlooked.

Tom

[John Peterson]

Hey Friends,


This thread is a fascinating read. I have really enjoyed the insights that have been shared by so many of you. Thanks goes to each of you.

Frankly, I can't help but believe that to a certain extent, our choice of ancestry has a direct bearing on how well each of us does with any given type of dietary or nutritional strategy. For example, The Native American Indians that were observed by artist George Catlin (particularly the Cheyenne) in the 1820's and 30's were magnificent physical specimens. He stated that their diet consisted almost completely of Bison meat with some wild roots and various wild berries. I think it's interesting that berries that are generally very low in sugar content are also by far the best for us in terms of the Anti-Oxidants that they deliver.

Bottom line: I recommend that everyone keep a journal and note how eating certain foods affects energy levels, moods, etc. I can also assure you that some of you might discover that adding a certain amount of fruit like wild blue berries will be of major benefit to you.


----John Peterson

[John Peterson]

Hey Tom,

Weston Price has written some truly great books over the years. His favorite topic has always been nutrition with very little emphasis on the importance of exercise. Once you have a chance to read "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" I hope you will share it's insights with us.


---John Peterson

[chris64]

I have read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. It is a bit heavy going in parts (imo) but the chapters I enjoyed the most featured his travels all over the world researching the nutrition and health of indigenous peoples ranging from Scottish Islanders, Swiss mountain villages to Inuit and Native Americans.He also visited Aboriginals in Austrlia, New Zealand Maori and various Pacific Island groups. One of the main points he made was the high amounts of fat soluble vitamins (up to 10 times as much in some cases) and 4 times the calcium in their diets compared with the western diet in the 1930s. Of course his research ended with the onset of the 2nd World War so its fascinating to imagine how much further he could have gone. A very good read overall, like stepping back in time.

[Hank_Z]

I'm just back online after several days of bronchitis. This turned into a fascinating thread. As some others have said about their posts, I tried to do everything I could to avoid attacking anyone personally. Challenging thoughts and ideas is not only fine, but extremely useful. A part of the "scientific method." :highfive:

Two things I want to mention. One is a great example of (my) not remembering correctly.

First, I especially appreciate the information on this thread about how each of us reacts to eating different foods. One of my biggest challenges for years has been keeping my energy up throughout the day. Whether or not I've been exercising regularly.

More than two months, Alan...who had lost 60 pounds...highly recommended that I write down everything I eat. I didn't follow his advice. Not because I disagreed with it. It was just "too much trouble." Two months and less results than I wished later, I'm convinced that this protocol is important for me. It will also help me see how food affects my energy level.

Second... About 8 years ago, my family doctor recommended that I see a nutritionist. I'd gained weight and wanted to lose it.

During my visit with the nutritionist, she told me 'I could eat all the grapes that I wanted.' I felt wonderful! I love grapes! So for six months or more, I ate a huge amount of grapes every day. But the numbers on my bathroom scale...for some unknown reason...kept going up. I gained more than 15 pounds.

Finally, I went back and opened my file that had the information from the nutritionist. When I looked at my notes, I saw that the nutritionist had actually said, "You can eat all of the GRAPE [very small] TOMATOES that you want." :disapointed:

- Hank

[Hank_Z]

Tom, I've done so many stupid things in my life that I freely share the episodes.

I've heard that laughing kicks off endorphins and other good stuff (highly technical term!) in the body. So telling some of the dumb things I've done might help others...and me...enjoy endorphin highs. :act-up:

Have a great week, Tom. I really appreciate your posts. :highfive

- Hank

[budgiefan]

5 pieces of fruit a day sounds like a lot to me, but it's sure better than 5 candy bars a day. I think the key here is balance. I would think if those 5 pieces of fruit are balanced with some veggies, green and otherwise, lean protien, fiber and the right kind of fat, it's probably better than the diet of about 90% of Americans.

I have a hard time finding fruit that tastes the way it's supposed to taste, or tastes as good as it looks. Buying fruit is always a crapshoot. When it's good, there's nothing better, but when it's bad, it's pretty bad.

[tom]

I find this site interesting:

fibermenace.com

Tom

[Alan_OldStudent]

......... I think the key here is balance. I would think if those 5 pieces of fruit are balanced with some veggies, green and otherwise, lean protien, fiber and the right kind of fat, it's probably better than the diet of about 90% of Americans.......

That's good common sense. I can only add that we need to exercise those guidelines in a way that brings us pleasure, that tastes good, insofar as our medical condition permits.

Regards,

Alan

[Hank_Z]

That's good common sense. I can only add that we need to exercise those guidelines in a way that brings us pleasure, that tastes good, insofar as our medical condition permits.

Regards,

Alan

Excellent point, Alan. When I try to force myself to do either exercises that I hate or eat food that I despise, my willpower tends to evaporate. The end result...often a waste of time.

- Hank

[Free]

I find this site interesting:

fibermenace.com

Tom

I have the book, and I have found it accurate for me, although it goes against the grain (pardon the pun) of what is commonly taught about fiber.

http://www.fibermenace.com (http://www.fibermenace.com/)

[THE LONE WOLF]

Wow! I didn't think what I thought was a simple question would generate so many responses! Thanks to all who did! My question was does eating a lot of fruit cause diabetes. The general consenses is that it does not, but too much fruit can cause problems, just like too much of any one thing, even a healthy thing like fruit, can cause problems.

Budgiefan, I balance my diet with salads, veggies, olive oil, and all of the other items you mentioned in your post. Likewise, I don't eat fried foods, drink sodas, or smoke cigerettes, although I do enjoy a good cigar on special occasions.

What ever happened to The Fruitarian One who used to post here? I am sure he could have chimed in with some interesting insights on the subject.