VRT Metaphysics

[JoeJustice]

With Douglis bringing up the lack of need for any kind of metaphysical component to VRT (i.e. qi) Does metaphysics have a role for those open to it? And if so, what is that role?

http://uk.geocities.com/pranichealinguk_2002/images/hand_projecting_prana_energy_pranic_healing_chakra _therapy.jpg

-Joe

[Alan_OldStudent]

With Douglis bringing up the lack of need for any kind of metaphysical component to VRT (i.e. qi) Does metaphysics have a role for those open to it? And if so, what is that role?

-Joe

Hi Joe,

I also do not believe in the literal existence of Qi or Nerve Force in the metaphysical sense of the word. But I do believe in the power of our imagination.

I think that picturing an energy flow or nerve force strongly, learning to feel it, can be very useful in training the central nervous system to recruit more and more muscle fibers into an exercise.

I'm fairly new to what John calls our methods, but I have found that practicing these exercises while visualizing nerve energy helps me learn to flex more and harder. That makes my exercise more efficient.

What do you think?

Regards,

Alan

[VRT Man]

Good question, Joe! Metaphysics either is a component to everything, or a component to nothing. Depends on the Aristotelian stance you may take on it. What exactly is the first cause and nature of ultimate reality? Or better yet, why not take Immanuel Kant's viewpoint on an a priori concept: from a known or assumed cause, to a deductive or related effect? Take your pick.

Mystical connotations have been applied to VRT, but I make no such distinction. It only drives people away, not attracts them. Take out the mystical and intellectual and apply the practical. I simply see it as the God-given power of the imagination to build up the muscles. Or like that big dumb character in the book "Of Mice and Men", when asked how he got his muscles, he says, "I thinked them."

--Greg Mangan

[douglis]

Greg wrote:
"Mystical connotations have been applied to VRT, but I make no such distinction. It only drives people away, not attracts them. Take out the mystical and intellectual and apply the practical."

This was exactly the intention of my post.

[VRT Man]

Thanks, douglis. Glad that was your intention.

I believe VRT is cut and dried science.

--Greg

[JoeJustice]

I believe VRT is cut and dried science.
--Greg

Oh yeah?! Well don't make me have to open a chakra full of iron on your @$$!!!

-Joe

[Andy62]

"The body is made by the thought that lies behind it."

YOGA AND HEALTH

[MikeNY]

Hi Joe,

I also do not believe in the literal existence of Qi or Nerve Force in the metaphysical sense of the word. But I do believe in the power of our imagination.

I think that picturing an energy flow or nerve force strongly, learning to feel it, can be very useful in training the central nervous system to recruit more and more muscle fibers into an exercise.

I'm fairly new to what John calls our methods, but I have found that practicing these exercises while visualizing nerve energy helps me learn to flex more and harder. That makes my exercise more efficient.

What do you think?

Regards,

Alan

It does not matter if you believe in Chi/Nerve Force or disblieve, it works is all that counts. Alan's insightful comments show the middle way.

[JoeJustice]

"The body is made by the thought that lies behind it."

YOGA AND HEALTH

I really like that quote. :)

-Joe

[Hank_Z]

...Mystical connotations have been applied to VRT, but I make no such distinction. It only drives people away, not attracts them. Take out the mystical and intellectual and apply the practical. I simply see it as the God-given power of the imagination to build up the muscles....

--Greg Mangan

Greg, I love your answer. While some people are attracted by the mystical and intellectual, I believe that most people just want the results.

Those who do approach life from more of a "mystical" point of view will use that mystical framework to understand and work with VRT.

I also like Alan's thoughtful reply...because I agree with it. :act-up:

- Hank

[Andy62]

Everybody has to approach things from their own perspective and within the context of their own belief structure. Personally I view life and the whole universe as the great mystery. There are so many things in life that science cannot begin to explain and I find that exciting and fascinating. Our connection to these mysteries is the human mind.


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

William Shakespeare, "Hamlet", Act 1 scene 5
Greatest English dramatist & poet (1564 - 1616)

[JoeJustice]

I don't know where I stand on the whole concept of qi and other such mystical forces. I can't help but think the universe is far more complex than we humans will ever understand. And I don't see how the the universe can be mere happenstance.

I tend to lean towards the scientific. I'm not a true skeptic, since they often are very rigid in their thinking, but I do approach things of a metaphysics nature with caution. So, as with many things in life, I remain open to the possibilities. Two sayings always float around in my head to keep me balanced...

There is none so blind and he who will not see.

and...

Open-minded is just another term for empty-headed.

-Joe :)

[VRT Man]

Oh, I definitely believe the Universe is a mystery, and none of us will ever know during our lifetimes what it all entails! Once an idea is discovered, and can quantifiably be repeated again and again, however, it becomes a science, and is better understood by teaching this as a science to new students.

At one time all things were a mystery; astronomy (once was astrology), chemistry (once was alchemy), bioenergy and biomechanics, (mystical forces before biochemistry was defined), flight mechanics and rocket science (only birds can fly and God didn't want men to fly), engineering, and virtually all the other sciences. My training was in the Life Sciences (Biology), and I tend to understand the science of physiology, biomechanics, nutrition, etc.

But as Plato once said, "No man has ever seen a perfect tree. That does not mean that one does not exist." Meaning there is an infinite tier of perfection in the universe, as yet undiscovered. I happen to call this God.

I always liked the quote from Hamlet that Gordon put down, and I always believe in the infinite beyond, and endless possibilities; BUT, I also know people (in general) are hesitant to buy the VRT System the more mystical it sounds in its description; (that's been my own experience); when they see it is a form of visualization (psychology) combined with practical muscle physiology (flexion, i.e. flexors vs. extensors), they tend to go "Ahhh--now it does not sound so weird!"

It of course is not weird, but the way you present it to the public, can make all the difference!

People of course are comfortable with science. They are, in general, leery of 'mystical' things. Some of us like them, but certainly not all. They want to know that a vacuum cleaner works scientifically through electricity, and that it will clean their house.

--Greg Mangan

[JoeJustice]

Weeeellll.... I for one would LOVE to have a magical vacuum cleaner!

-Joe

[Alan_OldStudent]

Hi VRT_Man

Well said, Greg.

Regards,

Alan

[Andy62]

" Because strength generally does not exceed 30% of your tendon strength, the strength govenor mechanism is set up way too conservatively. Scientists believe that pulling the brake from your gas pedal, that is minimizing the inhibitory imput into the muscles is the key that will open the door to super strength undreamed of by the strongest people in the world. Despite grandmothers wrestling leopards and mothers
lifting cars to save their progeny supposedly do something to prevent the 'take it easy, you might get hurt' commands from reaching their muscles. Insane people bend bars in the windows of their cells- I believe they call them wards in the US- because their neural circuitry is goofed up. It does not recognize inhibitory input and does not hold you back.. This is the essence of DISINHIBITION TRAINING, THE HOTTEST NEW DIRECTION IN STRENGTH TRAINING. Of course we do not want to to totally lose our senses, rather learn to ignore them when we choose to.

Enter FEED-FORWARD TENSION, one of the most promising disinhibition techniques. It requires you to maximally contract your muscles with a submaximal weight or NO WEIGHT WHATSOEVER. Remember Charles Atlas and his 'Dynamic Tension'method? You are supposed to imitate lifting a weight by flexing your muscles for all you have got. Just as Tai Chi Kung differs from visually similar calisthenics in concentration and awareness , 'Dynamic Tension' is an Oscar Winning pantomime of a world record powerlift, and not just a mindless going through the motions.

The guy in the leopard skin swim suit did not invent the method. Russian Scientists Anokin and Proshek did in the early 1900s. Or so they thought. Bodhidharma, the semi mythical progenitor of Oriental martial arts from India, may have practiced such exercises a millennium and a half ago.

Scientists were skeptical of 'Dynamic Tension' for a while suspecting that by creating artificial resistance within your muscles you learn to put on the brakes. The Soviet study by Kovalik established beyond the shadow of a doubt that ' virtual lifting' builds strength even in the so called quick lifts."


"Power to The People"

by Pavel Tsatsoline

Pages 71& 72

[JoeJustice]

AF1.... you sly dog! You trying to stir up some trouble?

I do believe miracles have been done on Earth. But chi, I think is a bit of an elusive concept to me. I think there is a kind of universal energy but I don't know that you can defeat an attacker by disrupting his chi flow. But I am open the concept.

-Joe

[Andy62]

I think that certain concepts are beyond our human understanding, but I believe that a lot of the concepts described as metaphysics can be reduced to energy which I look at as the basis of the universe. Many of the feats described in the Bible are really the result of energy. In the story of Samson he lost his power when his hair was cut off and recovered it when his hair grew back. In his own mind he believed that this strength came from his hair and he revealed that to Delilah and she knew that she had found the secret of his strength. It is not too far of a stretch to assume that the strength that he released by pushing down the temple was Chi or NERVE FORCE or whatever you want to call it. Since he believed that his strength came from his hair the loss of his hair activated his inhibitions which blocked his energy flow and the regrowth of his hair disinhibited him and loosened up the flow of his Chi. The Mighty Atom used the Hebrew book of mysticism the Kabbalah which stated that the "infinite light" was the force that was present in everything in the universe. What better metaphor can there be for pure energy than infinite light. In performing his feats of strength The Atom visualized the infinite light flowing through out his body and his extremities and giving him strength. Again you could reasonably assume that was the same force or power that Samson was calling on and it is projected by the mind and the power of belief in the mind.

[MikeNY]

AF1 & Joe I had an ice cream cone that was an absolute miracle! It tasted so good it was a sin! And fudge down the center!, and chocolate at the bottom of the cone. Old fashioned Ice Cream Parlors must use Qi!

I believe in chi, prana and the concept no matter the name, but that is belief. I saw a Kung fu sifu drive his finger into and inside a brick, a real brick, he drove the finger in to the middle knuckle of his forefinger. After the demonstration a little girl pinched his finger and he said "ouch"; his were not hardened hands, he used Qi/Chi. He was cheap and had stucndet get bricks off of demolished bulding sites, so the bricks were no brand new but were free. He passed the brick around before he drove his finger inside it, he used a brick he'd broken in a demonstration, as said many looked it over, no weak spots. He drove his finger into the unmarked side of the brick.

AF1 i believe in miracles and in God but don't force my beliefs on others. Some of the best Christians and Jews I have meet were athiests and witches; that had respect for the rights of others. I know Muslims that are models of Christianity as taught by Jesus, good people, same for Buddist, Hindus and on and on. I see the same God at the center of most faithes.

[Royce]

Personally, I don’t consider Qi/Chi to be a mystical force; rather, I suspect it is simply a force of nature—such as magnetism-- that is poorly understood.

If you read the work of Dr. William Tiller, who has impeccable academic credentials, you will discover that he has used this force to affect the PH factor of water in a rather dramatic fashion. And his experiments are prosaic in the extreme.

http://www.tillerfoundation.com/


And Qi Gong and acupuncture are based upon a paradigm that totally accepts the existence of Qi/Chi. Acupuncture and acupressure are becoming more and more accepted here in the West, and a steadily diminishing number of researchers accredit the success of acupuncture and acupressure to the placebo effect.

Unfortunately, here at this forum, we find that terms such as “nerve force” and “our methods” often elicit outrage and/or derision. It’s all become very personal, since certain folks are closely associated with said terms. The phrase “war of words” immediately comes to mind.

I’m not sure how all of this is going to end. I do know that a lot of people are increasingly confused with the, seemingly, unending number of terms and phrases that have proliferated.

As someone who has practiced Qi Gong for many years, I can tell you that many of the views being expressed here are totally at odds with either Qi Gong or TCM—Traditional Chinese Medicine. But so what? We all have our opinions, informed or otherwise.

At one time, I naively thought that some of the arguments would be settled as more and more people added to our knowledge base. I was hoping that interested parties could then examine the success or failures of people working with the many ideas presented and come to their own conclusions. Certainly, I was hoping that the success or failures of practitioners would be stored for posterity—that there would be a repository.

But things haven’t worked out that way, and we continue to plow over old ground. But…………………I’m taking all of this less seriously now. Some low camp can be a good thing.

Don’t’ worry! Be happy!

[Andy62]

Different cultures have called this energy by different names and directed it toward different purposes. I too believe that many of these things that are now mystical will some day be recognized and understood by conventional science. I believe that an awful lot of the confusion has to do with sematics and cultural differences. A generally accepted generic name is "intrinsic energy." The Chinese have called this same energy Chi and used it in Kung Fu, The Japanese called it Ki and used it in Karate, and the East Indians used it for yoga and called it Prana. Alois P. Swoboda directed this same energy toward over coming stresses found in western culture by developing physical, mental and emotional strength and called it NERVE FORCE. In my opinion it is the same power and can be directed toward a number of different activities.

[JoeJustice]

Gordon, why do you present NERVE FORCE in all caps? Was it Swoboda that coined the term? Did he get it from somewhere else? Paul Bragg had a nerve force book, didn't he?

-Joe

[Andy62]

Joe, The first time that I saw the term NERVE FORCE was in an article by Bob Hoffman, the founder of the York Barbell Company, when he was promoting isometrics in the 1960s. As I remember it was capitalized in that article which is probably where I got the habit. I was fascinated by the concept. I think Paul Bragg's book is excellent. I have seen the term in Swoboda's courses and articles which date back to the early
1900s and I assume that he was using it before that which makes him the earliest user of the term that I have found.