My Costa Rica Doctor and DVRs/VRTs

[Hank_Z]

Last week I visited my family doctor for the first time. I wanted to get set up with a doctor here in Costa Rica so I can get help when I need it.

My family doctor is Costa Rican. She trained for three years in the U.S. and has an excellent reputation.

When she asked me what I do for exercise, I started something like this: "I know this will sound strange, but I do weightlifting exercises on a daily basis...without using any weights. I just imagine that I'm lifting very heavy weights."

Her response? "Sure. All that matters is the muscular tension. Your muscles have no idea what is causing that tension." Totally matter-of-fact. As if she had been participating in our forum. :dazed

Her response and knowledge shocked me. I wouldn't expect a U.S. doctor to be up on VRT/DVR exercise. Seems like there's more knowledge out there than we may realize.

- Hank

[MikeNY]

Smart MD you have Hank; that is a good Doctor to have take care of your health.

[ben alexander]

My physician said pretty much the same thing, when I told him. He said that its nothing new, and I think he said he used to do the Atlas course himself. Obviously, he said, you won't be able to bench press 500lbs that way, but for everyday fitness and a good build, he said it was a good idea.

I suffered a back injury as a younger man (crashed my motorbike), and he said dynamic tension exercises were the best thing. Heavy weights would just compress the spine.

Ben

[A1C Evans]

Obviously, he said, you won't be able to bench press 500lbs that way, but for everyday fitness and a good build, he said it was a good idea.



Ben

Why do you think that is? Is it because of the skill of weight lifting, specificity of the exercise, the type of resistance or that DVR/VRT doesnt make you THAT strong?

[Big Bear]

Hi Hank,

That is a good Doctor to hang on to.Our family Doc. is the same way,but before we had him we had some less than stellar family Doctors.I know that alot more Alternative Medicine is being taught finally,maybe this mindset is trickling into physical health protocols andunderstanding by Doctors?

If that were the case it would be truly remarkble and hopefully the ramifications would be huge.We all know that all you need is one or two books and willingness.Think what this could do for a troubled health care system!

Great post Hank and thank you.

peace,
jason

[ben alexander]

Why do you think that is? Is it because of the skill of weight lifting, specificity of the exercise, the type of resistance or that DVR/VRT doesnt make you THAT strong?

Its all about the specificity of the exercise in question. John raises the issue in his IPR book. Zass the strongman was phenomonally strong, but not at lifts...he admitted himself that he had not trained in lifts and didn't have the specific strength, agility and technique to do them effectively.

My weightlifting friend says that, contrary to popular belief, weight lifting isn't about brute strength. There's all sorts of things to consider, like balance, explosive strength, correct posture etc.

I don't doubt that DVRs can make you very strong, but extremely strong people will be that way regardless of how they train. Not everyone who takes up the guitar will have the skill of Steve Vai, or the songwriting abilities of the Beatles, so likewise, not everyone who works out will ever be capable of lifting 500 lbs.

At the end of the day, benchpressig extremely heavy weights is a very specific skill that has no real application in real life. Unless you plan to lift pianos by yourself as a career, that is!

Ben

[Royce]

Its all about the specificity of the exercise in question. John raises the issue in his IPR book. Zass the strongman was phenomonally strong, but not at lifts...he admitted himself that he had not trained in lifts and didn't have the specific strength, agility and technique to do them effectively.

My weightlifting friend says that, contrary to popular belief, weight lifting isn't about brute strength. There's all sorts of things to consider, like balance, explosive strength, correct posture etc.

I don't doubt that DVRs can make you very strong, but extremely strong people will be that way regardless of how they train. Not everyone who takes up the guitar will have the skill of Steve Vai, or the songwriting abilities of the Beatles, so likewise, not everyone who works out will ever be capable of lifting 500 lbs.

At the end of the day, benchpressig extremely heavy weights is a very specific skill that has no real application in real life. Unless you plan to lift pianos by yourself as a career, that is!

Ben

Great remarks, Ben! Thank you.
Let me respond to the doctor’s comment, which were, in large part, very good.

I take issue with his idea that there are certain limitations when doing DVRs. There seems to be the idea that DVR resistance is, in some way, limited in the results it can provide.

That is what I get from the remark that one “obviously” won’t develop enough strength to bench 500 pounds through DVR training alone.

I haven’t never benched 500 pounds in my life. And I never will. But I did manage to bench a respectable amount of weight—425 some years ago. That strength was developed with weights, but given the amount of strength that DVRs have developed for me, I believe that a young guy, with good potential, could assuredly get to the point of being able to bench press 500 pounds through DVR training alone.

Certainly, if one wants to be a weightlifter, he should lift weights, but DVRs can build great power. And a lot of the bull shit statements about the limitation of this great form of exercise are simply talk and nothing more.

The problem with such a trivialization of this elegant form of exercise is that it may discourage young trainees from trying to reach their limits with DVR training.

[Hank_Z]

The problem with such a trivialization of this elegant form of exercise is that it may discourage young trainees from trying to reach their limits with DVR training.

Great post, Royce. I agree that it's important to keep in mind "young trainees" using DVR and how they will perceive what we say.

One of the reasons I want to drastically improve body is so I'll have credibility with young people here in Costa Rica. They are perfect candidates for DVRs/VRTs. Most have very little money...but that's enough with DVR/VRT!

If anyone thinks I'm saying that I need to look like John or a lot of other members of this forum, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm specifically talking about going from being "obese" per the BMI numbers (and I agree with the "obese" conclusion) to being healthy and strong...and looking like that.

- Hank

[peter]

Idunno about that. I think there's a distinction here - that one would be able to develop the muscular strength to bench that much, but there's a lot more that goes into benching heavy weights. It's not just form & technique. Someone who's not used to the weight will hurt themselves.

[Andy62]

DVR/VRT build a different kind of strength than weights. Yes, one can build the strength of lift weights using DVR/VRT,but in the process you will build a more intense and a more enduring type of strength that will manifest itself in every part of your being and in every activity of your life.

[Royce]

Idunno about that. I think there's a distinction here - that one would be able to develop the muscular strength to bench that much, but there's a lot more that goes into benching heavy weights. It's not just form & technique. Someone who's not used to the weight will hurt themselves.

I have no problem with what you have written, but I think I’m correct about the tenor of what the MD was casually saying, which ,in my estimation, was that DVRs are not ideal for developing extreme power.

I totally agree there are skills associated with bench pressing and to learn those skills, you need to juggle weights.

[Royce]

I frankly would be extremely impressed if someone could bench press 500 lbs. after using only DVRs for training. Would have to see it to believe it.


Would you like to be the first? Of course, for all I know, there may be a number of people who already have done this.
What's the best that has ever been bench pressed? It's far, far more than 500 pounds.

[Royce]

The burden of proof lies with those making the claims. Until evidence is provided of DVR-only training leading to 500 lb. bench presses (or even more) it's all just speculation and theory.

I like DVRs but you gotta be realistic about what they can accomplish.


With all due respect,I think you are the one who is making a claim, Jared.

So tell me what you figure “realistic” is in regard to the level of strength one can reach when training with DVRs. Is there some magical number that one can’t surpass with DVRs but can with weights or some other form of progressive resistance? Are you trying to suggest that there’s something inherently inferior about DVR resistance—and if so, what might that be?

And I will also be anxious to know how you have reached whatever conclusion you have reached.

I suspect you are going to say that istrength gains will vary from person to person--if so, I will agree.

In my view, any sort of progressive resistance can build maximum size and strength if it is correctly applied within the limits of a person’s genetic profile.

[Royce]

You're confusing me with someone else I think, as my name isn't Jared.

And with all due respect it is you who made the claim. In your own words:



Not to be confrontational but based on logic alone I have to disagree with that statement. To bench 500 or more would require significant time under the weights... not just to build power but to acclimatize the joints and build the tendon strength necessary so that you don't get hurt while attemping the feat.

DVRs are a fine protocol but I find it extremely doubtful that such a lift could be done by using visualized resistance as the sole form of training.

I'd be happy to change my mind if someone actually pulls it off, until then color me a skeptic.

Sorry about the name confusion. It was a slip of the keys.

Anyway, you are certainly, entitled to your opinion, which I would like to know more about.

Do you believe that only weight training can possibly give one the ability to bench 500 pounds?

Are such devices such as Exergeni, Mini Gym, and various hydraulic machines insufficient for training one to bench 500 pounds?

And you didn’t address my question about whether or not you feel that DVR resistance is somehow inferior to other forms of resistance. All of the aforementioned machines are isokinetic devices. And, in my estimation, DVRs are isokinetic exercises sans apparatus.

I don’t mean to nitpick; rather, I’m just interested in the nuances of what you are saying.

As an aside for everyone, I think we all need to get past the notion that DVRs provide imaginary or visualized resistance. The resistance is not imaginary. One might use imagination or visualization to help trigger the resistance but once triggered, the resistance is real. It is provided by opposing muscle groups. I invite thos who disagree to chime in.


As I mentioned earlier, a weight lifter needs to lift weights to be a champion weight lifter. However, these days, guys are benching over 800 pounds; consequently, I don’t view a 500 pound bench press to be extraordinary.

I’m sorry if it seems like I’m giving you the “third degree.” I don’t mean to.

But I have to tell you that I don’t think we have many serious weight men really giving DVRs a fair shot. I say that because DVRs have worked superbly for me and the “iron heads” that I know who have really gotten into DVRs.

Maybe some of these guys just have not learned how to flex properly. That’s about all that I can figure. Guys like Shen, Deltoyd and others find the results from DVR exercises to be nothing less than mind blowing.

So I really have to scratch my head when I hear some of these lukewarm remarks about DVR training.

[Royce]

Af1 writes:

Here we agree. So it would seem that you also come to the conclusion that there is a limit to what can be accomplished with DVRs alone.


Royce writes:

I agree that specificity is always an issue. And, over the years, I have said as much.

So how does strength developed with DVRs compare to strength gained with weights when we are trying to develop useful strength for other activities , such as marital arts? Given the choice of training methods should one choose weights or DVRs? Then the matter is more complicated.

But let me talk about the machines I mentioned.

An Exergenie is a friction rope device that was developed back in the sixties and was used by our NASA astronauts. It’s resistance is supplied by tension that increases because of its rope being wrapped around a cylinder.

The Mini Gym is a training device that creates resistance with a unique braking device.

Hydraulic devices generate resistance much as shock absorbers on a car. All of these machines are isokinetic devices that supply accommodating resistance—that is, the harder you pull or press, the greater the resistance supplied.

All of these machines have proven their worth over the years, and many have been employed by people wanting to increase their strength for sports, including Olympic weightlifting.

The issue concerning the effects of DVRs on tendons, bones and muscles has been discussed extensively here over the years.

Since the archives are now gone, I am reposting a note from the past. Hopefully, it will be of interest to folks here.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful comments, Af1.
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A note from the past!
Royce writes:
I don’t think there is any doubt that DVRs positively impact bone density. The same holds true for isometrics.

Some folks here seem to be of the opinion that the flexing of muscles of the body—such as occurs with DVRs-- doesn’t apply significant tension to the bones to which they are attached. I disagree. The following excerpt from a discussion of seizures induced by electroshock therapy lends credence to the notion that muscle flexion can indeed stress the bones. Admittedly, the following example is extreme. But I have concluded that hard stressing of the muscles in DVR exercises can, indeed, affect ones skeletal system.

“When the excitation reaches the motoneurons of all the body's muscles, there is massive, convulsive muscular contraction. The muscles contract so powerfully that tendons may be torn from the bones, the bones themselves may be broken, teeth chipped and broken, and so on. The massive requirements for oxygen and the interruption of breathing caused by the convulsion often causes anoxia…. This overall response resembles the "grand mal" seizure that occurs in epilepsy."


In the past there were people here disputing the notion that DVRs can impact bones and muscles. So I’m just endeavoring to illustrate that the muscles, tendons and bones are integral.

Presently, a lot of folks talk about the beneficial impact that weight training can have on the bones. That’s true enough. But when people are exercising with weights, they are normally far below the intensity necessary to break a bone and yet it’s beneficial exercise for the bones. So I’m just extrapolating from that fact when I suggest that DVRs are also providing benefits to the bones.

.

[Hank_Z]

This post is not to interrupt the exchange of ideas on this thread. Quite the opposite. AF1 and Royce, you're both asking questions and providing information that is valuable to me and, I'm sure, others.

More than that, both of you are illustrating powerfully how to ask and reply to the toughest questions with total respect for the other person. Thank you!

May the thread continue....

Hank

[Andy62]

Because strength generally does not exceed 30% of your tendon strength, the strength govenor mechanism is set up way too conservatively. Scientists believe that pulling the brake from your gas pedal, that is minimizing the inhibitory imput into the muscles is the key that will open the door to super strength undreamed of by the strongest people in the world. Despite grandmothers wrestling leopards and mothers
lifting cars to save their progeny supposedly do something to prevent the 'take it easy, you might get hurt' commands from reaching their muscles. Insane people bend bars in the windows of their cells- I believe they call them wards in the US- because their neural circuitry is goofed up. It does not recognize inhibitory input and does not hold you back.. This is the essence of DISINHIBITION TRAINING, THE HOTTEST NEW DIRECTION IN STRENGTH TRAINING. Of course we do not want to to totally lose our senses, rather learn to ignore them when we choose to.

Enter FEED-FORWARD TENSION, one of the most promising disinhibition techniques. It requires you to maximally contract your muscles with a submaximal weight or NO WEIGHT WHATSOEVER. Remember Charles Atlas and his 'Dynamic Tension'method? You are supposed to imitate lifting a weight by flexing your muscles for all you have got. Just as Tai Chi Kung differs from visually similar calisthenics in concentration and awareness , 'Dynamic Tension' is an Oscar Winning pantomime of a world record powerlift, and not just a mindless going through the motions.

The guy in the leopard skin swim suit did not invent the method. Russian Scientists Anokin and Proshek did in the early 1900s. Or so they thought. Bodhidharma, the semi mythical progenitor of Oriental martial arts from India, may have practiced such exercises a millennium and a half ago.

Scientists were skeptical of 'Dynamic Tension' for a while suspecting that by creating artificial resistance within your muscles you learn to put on the brakes. The Soviet study by Kovalik established beyond the shadow of a doubt that ' virtual lifting' builds strength even in the so called quick lifts."


"Power to The People"

by Pavel Tsatsoline