Why Hindu Squats can hurt you.

[Black Knight]

So when i first got back into(did them as a kid)body weight exercises i was very big on hindu squats.I followed what Furey said and always worked on attaining higher and higher numbers.I loved that exercise.I would do a few hundred with a band around my neck each day after Jiu Jitsu practice.And on my off days i would do even more.Years went by and i had great results.Then i started noticing my knees feeling OFF.Not really sure how to explain it but it was almost like my ligaments or tendons felt weak.So i layed off of them.I always came back to them and used them in my routine,but due to how they made me feel i had to reduce numbers.

Just recently i asked this one therapist at my rehab center who is a very down to earth intelligent guy.And whenever i ask him a question he always gives me a very precise scientiffic answer.Now i might slaughter some of the details but basicly what he was told me is that your thigh bone and shin bone werent really designed to move like that.Its like theres no support and your femur runs into your shin bone.Like i said i might of slaughtered the wording but ive read some of Pavels material and he basicly says the same type of thing.I think he says something like very few comrades can get away with this movement without adverse effect.So now due to my knee injury(wich had nothing to do with HS i must say)i dont think ill ever return to this exercise.

I still am very big on its variation wich is the flat footed free weight sqaut.I do them two different ways i either still performe the arm motion HS style or i just keep my hands close to my chin like im in a figher stance and work on cranking out the reps as fast as humanly possible going down till my thigh is parralel to the ground.

[JoeJustice]

Great post, BK!

I've not personally had any problems from Hindu Squats, but I can see where you're coming from. I keep mine in a lower range, but in all honesty I don't work my legs very much at this current time because I have naturally large thighs. I think if you had any kind of knee injury HS could easily aggravate them.

Knee bends until your thighs are parallel to the ground will probably give you great results! Throw in some wall squats and sprinting intervals and I bet you could easily get legs that could go the distance :)

Bottom line is, I think if any exercise is hurting you, you shouldn't do it.

-Joe

[Black Knight]

For intensithy purposes and to prepare my anearobic system for a fight im really big on HIll Sprints.I love to work out outside.But when the hills are to snow covered ill go to the gym and set the treadmill at the highest incline and crank up the speed to 10 to 10.5mph.Ill hop on for 30 seaconds and hop off and put my feet on the sides and rest for a minute or less.Right at about the 5th set your really wondering iff you should hop back on becasue your heart feels like its going to jump out of your chest and burst.But i figure my opponet would jump back on so you just do what you gotta do.

[MikeNY]

Black Knight I broke my leg and ankle a couple years ago in a accident; wearing the full cast screwed up my other knee a little; then when I graduated to a moonboot walking cast it screwed the knee on the broken leg a little. I've stayed away from HS for that reason, tried a couple and it didn't feel right. The Orthopedic Surgeon told me they know the casts screw up your knees a little, that is a given, but you can't live with a broken leg and ankle like I had; so the casts that cure us also slightly damage us, it is the lesser of two evils.

I can do M7 Half Squats, Wall Squats too or a Deep Horse Riding Posture, plus in physical therapy they gave me exercises similiar to a M7 1/2 Squat to do on a total Gym as therapy, they said the rule was not to go further than that or it could weaken the knees.

[MikeNY]

PS: BK that M7 Half Squat with tension has helped my knees improve, they are stronger now.

[Black Knight]

PS: BK that M7 Half Squat with tension has helped my knees improve, they are stronger now. I love the M7 half squats as well.Berofe i hurt my knee,i was doing them everymorning and defiantly felt more SPRINGY.After the surgery once my leg healed enough to work out again i started back on the M7 and im sure ill continue doing them from now till death does us part.

Just to reitirate what is stated by everyone on here,Transformetrics is a system that has so many variations of the same exercise that if one doesnt work for you simply move on to the next..So in closing thanks John.

[dynogoalie30]

Hi Mike, what is a deep horse riding posture? I tweaked my knee a few weeks ago playing hockey, and right now I cant do hindu squats, so the horse riding posture sounds interesting, thnaks.

[MikeNY]

dynogoalie30 it is a Kung Fu posture and also a exercise; it looks a lot like a M7 Half squat in the position of the lower body that is held; with both fists at your waist (with wrists up), or one arm extended with a fist and one arm (in the rear) bent at the elbow and knife hand or fist near your ear to strike with. It comes from the Shaolin Ssu Kenpo School and is used by most Kung fu Schools. As an exercise the Monks just hold the posture sometimes for hours, that would be hard for modern folks.

[MikeNY]

John-BK I agree, I see myself doing the M7 Half Squat for the rest of my life; my knee's improved so much it is radical. The knee's were never bad just annoying and a pain in the a** but that is gone, I wonder if the M7 Half Squat has cured the knees.

[John Peterson]

Hey Guys,


I was reading some material on the Great Gama, the wrestler that was said to be the greatest in India's history of the sport. Now I'm going to say something that some people may not like but I assure you that it is not a slam against Gama or the great Indian Wrestlers in the least. It's just the truth. AND IT DOES RELATE TO THE HINDU SQUATS.

According to strength historian David Willoughby, Gama and others of the great Indian Wrestlers had huge thighs and huge chests and abdomens as a result of their eating and training methods. At 5'7" and 260 pounds at his peak, Gama was certainly massive. So much so, that if he did perform a Hindu Squat ("batticks") his upper and lower legs were so massive that he could down no further than half way or 90 degrees and probably not quite that far. Likewise his abdomen (though powerfully developed) would not allow him to perform Hindu Push-Ups ("dunds") at anywhere even remotely near the range that some of you saw demonstrated in "The Trinity of Health" simply because Gama's proportions and body mechanics would not allow for it. I mention this because from time to time I receive e-mails asking about the numbers of reps that are ascribed to Gama. My response is, and has been, that the numbers could be true considering that they were very partial reps. And not anywhere near the range of motion that we think of.

This is what Willoughby stated in his book, "The Super Athletes" on page 368, "While such prolonged "endurance" exercise would reduce an average-sized man to skin and bones, their effect on the Indian wrestlers-nearly all of whom are heavyweights-is to produce an enormous development of the chest and thighs. Strangely, in these wrestlers the forearms and the calves remain relatively small, while the upper arms become only moderately developed in proportion to the huge chest and thighs. Also, the entire physique in these Indian wrestlers is notably smooth in appearance, in all parts (especially the mid-section) being covered with a thick layer of fat."

Please note: the reason that the forearms would remain small is because the Indian wrestlers performed no "chinning" movements of any kind (at least none that I have ever read about) and this would also explain why their upper arms became only moderately developed.

Anyway guys, one of the reasons some of you may become injured as a result of Hindu Squats is because you are using a very deep and full range of motion. This (in all likelihood) will not happen if you descend to only 90 degrees while under Dynamic Tension and keep your heals on the floor.

---John Peterson

[HE LIVES IN MY HEART]

I’m curious, has anyone tried the “Torso Push” found in Frank Rudolph Young’s Yoga Secrets for Extraordinary Health and Long Life? It’s actually a DSR type of exercise. Because of how force exerted, I have found it to be very knee friendly even though I’m going way past parallel. It really hits the quads nicely.

(If anyone doesn’t have the book I’ll post a description when I get home).

Yoga For Men Only also has a another great leg exercise, the “Psychergo Squat”. I have found that one to be knee friendly also - just concentrate on driving off the heels.

[MikeNY]

John that is brilliant insight and deduction; do to Gama's size and development he was really doing a M7 Half Squat type squat and did not over extend in the least! Logic always shines its light and solves any problem if the man using it has facts. Thank you John you just solved a riddle for those doing Hindu Squats.

[Andy62]

I have never believed in full squats. Stay with Tiger Move tension squats.

[Hank_Z]

I’m curious, has anyone tried the “Torso Push” found in Frank Rudolph Young’s Yoga Secrets for Extraordinary Health and Long Life? It’s actually a DSR type of exercise. Because of how force exerted, I have found it to be very knee friendly even though I’m going way past parallel. It really hits the quads nicely.

(If anyone doesn’t have the book I’ll post a description when I get home).

Yoga For Men Only also has a another great leg exercise, the “Psychergo Squat”. I have found that one to be knee friendly also - just concentrate on driving off the heels.

Yes, I'd like to see a description of the Torso Push. I appreciate your offer to provide it.:highfive:

Hank

[John Peterson]

Hey MikeNY,

Your welcome my friend. but the same also applies for his numbers as relates to Hindu Push-Ups. No way was he doing even close to the range of motion that so many of us do. And believe me, this is not a criticism in the least. It's just a fact.

---John Peterson

[HE LIVES IN MY HEART]

Hank:

Here's a description of the "Torso Push", found at pages 36-38.

I wish I knew how to post the scanned the illustration here. Nevertheless, here’s the description.

1. Stand before something strong and low enough like your kitchen sink (I use my kitchen counter).
2. Cup your hands over the edge, between 2 and 2 ½ feet apart, depending on your height.
3. Stand back about 4 1/2 to 5 feet from the sink, or far enough to straighten your arms. Have your feet point straight before you, about 6-7 inches apart so that they feel comfortable.
4. Crouch low on your knees, so that your arms are nearly straight (straight line from your arms, down to your torso) (you will now be up on the balls of your feet; your heels will up off the floor). Again, I wish I could post the illustration.
5. With the balls of feet, push torso upwards at and angle towards the sink (or counter).
6. Resist with your arms and shoulders.
7. Keep your body crouched low enough so that you barley clear the edge of the sink (counter) with your face as you move upwards.
8. Crouch low again on your knees and repeat.

[John Peterson]

Hey He Lives In My Heart,

I have been a fan of Frank Rudolph Young since I was 18 when I received "Yoga For Men Only" for my 18th Birthday. His exercises were unique and oftentimes completely original and not to be found anywhere else that I am aware of. Some of them however had so many steps that they became too difficult to understand.

---John Peterson

[Greg Newton]

Anyway guys, one of the reasons some of you may become injured as a result of Hindu Squats is because you are using a very deep and full range of motion. This (in all likelihood) will not happen if you descend to only 90 degrees while under Dynamic Tension and keep your heels on the floor.


John,

This was your advice in the Trinity of Health DVD as you explained various levels of free hand squatting. I want to clarify this for any who might think you've never mentioned this before. Deep squatting on the toes is challenging, fun, and can provide unique gains in balance, strength and coordination, but they are not for everyone. Genetics, prior history of injury, and the availablility of certain minerals in the diet, such as calcium and manganese, all have a play in how a person responds.

I mention the lack of minerals and trace minerals because in past correspondence with Ron Kosloff, who has kept the Gironda legacy alive, he told me that the American diet is so depleted of necessary minerals for joint, tendon, and ligament health that Americans can't do certain exercises that require mobility.

[gruntbrain]

JP's advice about altering pushup styles can be applied to squatting; perform a variety of squats with varying ROMs. If you hold onto to something for balance &/or assistance you'll be able to "cheat" your way to safe fitness - eg grab a rope & rep out on Pistols

[douglas]

I wonder if Gama was doing daily backbridging? It seems unlikely that he would of developed that massive abdomen if he was doing his bridge work for three minutes a day.

Some of the knee problems from doing Hindu Squats are from "bouncing" off the bottom of the movement. It is important to maintain a smooth and good form when doing this exercise. Try to keep the back straight as well. It is helpful to do them in front of a mirror so that you can see your form. Also daily high numbers of 500 reps as some advertise seem unnecessary. 200 reps seems about all that is needed and then one can combine with other leg exercises if desired.

[jan]

Here's my leg exercise I do morning and evening:

stand with your feet fairly wide apart, a bit wider than shoulderwidth, feet pointing outward in a comfortable angle. Raise your hands above your head and lean backward. Straighten back up, bend the knees to a 90° angle. At the same time, bring your arms to a horizontal position in front of you. Next, bend over, keeping the squat position, and extend the hands between your legs to the back. Return the upper body to an upright position, arms horizontally in front of you. Straighten your legs and lift your hands above your head. At the end , lean slightly backwards and repeat the whole thing.
I find this exercise very beneficial for upper leg development.

Jan

[workout warrior]

thanks for posting this my friend. I would not do hindu squats from now on because I don't want any long term knee injuries. I would just stick with regular BW squats.
Cheers

[Royce]

Currently, I am using the following leg exercises:

DVR/VRT squats
Agonist/antagonist isometric squats, which is really power flexing with intent.
“High stepping.”

The aforementioned exercises will provide a great workout. I have, also, used Hindu Squats, and they have worked well for me and my Qi Gong students. But quite honestly, Hindu Squats bore me to tears, especially when I start doing them in high numbers. But there are some people who love them, and to those folks, I can only say “keep on trucking.”

As for sore knees, I have to say that just about any leg exercise imaginable has given someone knee trouble. A lot of people see their knee troubles start because of sports:
Skiing, football and soccer seem to be especially bad. And exercise often seems to exacerbate matters.

[Alan_OldStudent]

Hello brothers and sisters,

I tried Hindu squats for a while and had to abandon them because of knee problems, soreness in the medial collateral ligament (MCL).

I have developed this following protocol for squats which serve me well.

When doing squats, try not to let the knees extend beyond a perpendicular line from the big toe. This protects the ligaments from being superflexed and unnaturally strained.
Start the squat with the feet at about shoulder width and feet pointing ahead.
When going down, I exhale and come down rather rapidly until my thighs are parallel to the floor, with my back in a straight line but bending slightly forward at the waist. I remain flatfooted. This is the negative phase of the maneuver.
When my thighs are parallel to the floor, I begin what I consider to be the "positive phase." I simultaneously tense these muscles between 50%-90% of my perceived maximum tension, depending on how many reps I want to do:
Abdomen (try to touch your backbone with your belly button).
Buttocks
Quadriceps
Hamstrings.
Calf muscles.
Clenched fists (somewhat optional).
While maintaining this tension and against the resistance created, I then slowly stand up while inhaling deeply.

The effect is a bit like a VRT squat, but with going down being the "negative" and the standing up being the "positive." If you do it VRT style, picture the weight being placed on your shoulders after your thighs are parallel to the floor, not before you begin the squat. Tensing my calves and trunk muscles provides me with a heart-thumping experience about the time I get to my 30th rep (if at 50% resistance) or 7th or 8th rep (if I'm at 90% resistance and doing the positives quite slowly).

To me, this provides much of the benefit of Hindu squats without the strain on my MCLs.


Regards,

Alan OldStudent

[MikeNY]

Alan very interesting and brilliant! I'll be trying Alan Squats for the M7! I like the way you reversed which is positive and negitive. I've used the M7 squat as a super set using muscle tension on both directions.

[tom]

I'm a big believer in jumping as high as you can and coming down softly. You'll be done in no time. 5 - 10 will you do ya. More sets if you are compulsive and don't care about diminishing returns.

Tom

[Alan_OldStudent]

Alan very interesting and brilliant! I'll be trying Alan Squats for the M7! I like the way you reversed which is positive and negitive. I've used the M7 squat as a super set using muscle tension on both directions.

Thanks Mike,

I was doing it super-set style, but currently, I get more out of it this way. If you incorporate it, let me know how it goes.

Regards,

Alan OldStudent

[douglis]

I believe that with all squat movements,especially when going below parallel,it's possible to create an imbalance between hip extensors(glutieus maximus) and hip flexors(iliopsoas).This is a very common cause of knee pain because those muscles re-align the femoral bone.
This doesn't mean that you have to give up squatting but you have to add hip flexors stengthening exercises to your routine.The best hip flexor exercise is straight leg raises or even better VRT straight leg raises.
Of course in VRT squats the hip flexor is one of the antagonists so it's rather unlikely to create an imbalance.

[April]

Thank you for this thread. Like some of you, I have also mainly gone to the M7 half-squats, as sometimes the Hindus bothered my knees. I will try the kinds of squats described here, which sound like excellent squat variations.

[Flash11740]

I do just 1 set each week to failure.

The other 2 cal days I do incline leanbacks and squat thrusts.