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Greg Newton
09-23-2011, 02:26 PM
One of the things that Larry brings out in Split Second Survival is that you need to be wary of getting entangled in the legal system. Four things can happen. One, the predator is successfully defended against and then turns and plays the victim so that you get charged. Two, the legal system can prosecute the predator for attacking you and then prosecutes you for using violence to defend yourself. Third, the law can view both of you as being in a "dueling" situation of mutal combat and prosecute you both equally. The last is what you want. The predator was seen for being a predator and your actions were only what force was necessary to stop the assault.

Anyone remember the movie "Born Losers" with Tom McLaughlin as his first Billy Jack role? Obviously this was a movie, but some things in the movie were based on reality. Billy Jack sees an outlaw biker gang savagely beat a man. He pulls a rifle out from his jeep and covers them with it. The bikers are arrested for beating the man and get 30 days in jail. Billy Jack gets arrested for pointing the firearm and spends six months in jail. That scenario is not so far fetched. It happens.

John McSweeney believed that once you defend yourself you need to get out of there and not wait around. I've had extensive talks with John Peterson about the same thing and he is of the same mind. However, I am not so sure. In this day of cellphone and surveillance cameras your image can be readily caught.

My former Kajukenbo instructor was attacked by two men. Kajukenbo being the brutal art it is, and Sifu being a tremendous adept, the two men were put in the hospital with life threatening injuries. Sifu didn't stick around, someone got a tag number, and Sifu got charged. Once again, it happens.

Sifu never gave me a lot of details, so I had to read between the lines. He was probably in a place he shouldn't have been, and his karate and jujitsu training went against him in the eyes of the law. If you are highly trained, it is assumed that you are automatically some sort of killer and you are held to a much higher standard of conduct. It will be used against you in court. This is why the older I get, the more I believe that self-defense training shouldn't be broadcast. In some ways the Okinawans had it right by training in secret.

So how do you survive the legal system? The first and foremost is, STAY OUT OF SITUATIONS THAT CAN BE PERCEIVED AS MUTUAL COMBAT OR MAY POTRAY YOU AS THE ADVERSARY. That requires being observant and having eyes wide open in any situation. It also requires emotional self-control. I wanted to kill a teen predator and his worthless parents one time who had taken advantage of my oldest daughter and kept harassing our family. He and his enabling parents played the system, which predators are good at doing.

Being a police officer at the time didn't help. It was used against me. I had to use emotional self-control. No amount of vengence was worth going to prison and leaving my wife and my two youngest daughters defenseless and without a provider.

Be a good witness of what happened. Be aware of what things triggered your defense actions and just how much force you used. In the heat and stress of a confrontation, this is not easy. However that is why it is so important to train your mind as well as your body. Even if you don't stick around, which I don't necessarily advise, shortly there after, make a detailed list of exactly what happened. That includes gestures, body movements, and what things the predator said. Also document your response.

Make sure you get the names of witnesses and people who may have seen what happened. Just remember, people's perceptions are often skewed by their own personal beliefs, experiences and prejudices.

If you are charged, find a good lawyer. That means finding someone with experience in that particular legal jurisdiction where you were charged. Be leery of being offered a plea bargain. Sometimes this is the best an attorney can get for you. Other times this is just a way for the attorneys to collect a fee and get the case off the docket with minimum effort.

Don't be surprised at how you are painted in court. We have what is called an adversarial system. Attorneys are paid money to advocate for or against. The opposing side will trash you and your character, but no hard feelings, that is just what they are paid to do.

Last, be aware of what the laws are in your state and local area. Visit your local library or look it up on the internet. S.C. for one has all their laws online. Talk with law enforcement. If you know a lawyer you can talk to, ask their opinions. Search out case decisions.

Last, only use what force is necessary to stop an attack. A shoulder jostle shouldn't result in a broken jaw from a left hook. A rough hug shouldn't result in a gouged out eye. Ask three questions. Does the predator have the ability to harm you? Does the predator have the opportunity to harm you? Has the predator put you or someone else in immediate jeopardy? Can what you did be perceived as punishing the predator rather than stopping or preventing an attack?

It is a hard reality that a law abiding citizen has to be so careful. The predator could care less. However, with self-defense training there is a responsibily to be alert and aware and to have the tools to survive the legal system.

Greg Newton

John Peterson
09-23-2011, 04:57 PM
Hey Greg,

Great post. I'm hesitant to state this but it serves a good purpose so I will. The stress of the legal system is what killed John McSweeney. John had an altercation with someone whom he threatened (and rightly so) but he had been set up and was video taped. The stress of the legal issues involved were more than he could handle and it killed him. The only reason that I am stating this here is because it underscores the truth of what can happen to a person even when he is completely in the right. Trust me friends, none of us needs more stress than we already face each day.

---John Peterson

P.S. If you must fight, get it over with and leave immediately. Don't stick around.

MikeNY
09-23-2011, 09:40 PM
Greg true wisdom, good advice. Here in New York the Public Defender's are in Court daily, and good Lawyers for Criminal Charges, they are well practiced. Do not get dad's real estate Attorney to defend you if you are arrested, get a specialist, and the Public Defenders in Cities are experts. I'd say if something happens document it and better to keep your eyes and ears open, make sure you do not get into a bad area, or face trouble, use your head. The Criminal Justice System is flawed the guilty slide and sometimes the innocent are wrongly convicted.

Greg Newton
09-24-2011, 06:45 AM
Hey Mike,

I like that advice about how to get an attorney. Attorneys network and every individual court circuit and judge has their own peculiar ins and outs. If you are ever charged it is always best to find someone who is familiar with the court circuit you are being charged in and who has had experience with that type of case. A retired police chief and private investigator gave me that advice many years ago. He said that even if you hired a name attorney, make sure you found someone else local.

Greg

MikeNY
09-24-2011, 10:41 AM
Greg I agree, that retired Police Chief, you and I know, having been on the Inside. One little thing is also important, get a cell phone that can photograpgh a video, and document what is happening. Makes Mr. Crook look like what he really is and hard to argue with a video of Mr. Psychopath in action and filled with hate!

zorrocowboy
10-01-2011, 11:08 AM
I was told by a former public defender (and I think G. Gordon Liddy may have alluded to this as well) that in any kind of violent situation where you need to call authorities (such as a home invasion), you should always call the ambulance instead of the police, and when the police do arrive, DON'T answer questions until you have a lawyer. The reason being that in stressful situations it can be difficult to think and remember what happened clearly. If, for example, you tell the police you shot the mugger with the gun once or twice (because that's what you remember clearly in the heat of the situation), and they see 17 empty casings fired from your gun lying about, you've begun to paint yourself into a corner. I guess the bottom line is that there are legitimate self-defense situations, but they may not always appear so cut-and-dried to the outside observer. Especially if there are unintended inconsistencies in your story. What you say can and will be used against you. . . .

Giant Soldier
10-06-2011, 09:23 AM
Excellent post, Greg. The advice above probably needs to be written up as a magazine article. Especially the part about writing down what happened. If you need to go to court those notes will be invaluable.

But of course not getting involved in the legal system in the first place is probably the best advice of all.

Andy62
10-06-2011, 07:48 PM
I was never involved in a situation that resulted in litigation concerning a violent encounter. I was employed in the commercial real estate business,hpwever, which is very litigious. Lawsuits and the threats of law suits are a negotiating strategy and a tool in that industry. While it wouldn't necessarily be applicable in a violence situation; I avoided a lot of trouble by getting a legal history of who I was working with. Some guys developed a formula and assembled a team of lawyers and shills or fake withesses and would repeat the same situation over and over. Since the possible senarios are limited only by the imagination I have found the best defense to be developing your instincts and keeping you antenna out along with developing your NERVE FORCE. Nothing will limit law suits like the perception of emotional strength in you by your potentiai adversary. Guys who file legal suits are looking for push-overs.

Greg Newton
10-06-2011, 08:07 PM
While it wouldn't necessarily be applicable in a violence situation; I avoided a lot of trouble by getting a legal history of who I was working with.


That is interesting. Predators aren't always physical. That is an interesting and proactive response to dealing with lawsuit sharks.

Greg

Andy62
10-08-2011, 01:05 AM
This whole discussion and particularly John's mention of how a legal suit caused John McSweeney's death has brought back some very powerful memories to me that emphasize some very important points. The major point is the importance of emotional control that is developed by Physiological type of exercise.

Think about it for a minute and you will realize in how many activites of life people try to get you in a weaker emotional state in an effort to control you. Probably the most used strategy is to try and get you "angry."Anger is an emotion ofthe child ego state which is the most vulnerable and dependent time of our life. Even in boxing, which is one of the most macho of sports, a popular saying is,"Never lose you head in the ring." The same thing is true of most types of sports psyching,many types of sales, and in interrogation techniques.

I remember when I joined a company during a period of change and stress that was very difficult for the industry that the company was operating in. I had moved to a new city to join the company so I was in an unfamiliar environment with no contacts. I immediately sensed that I was in a hostile environment and soon realized that everybody was fighting for survival and you couldn't trust anybody. There were some ruthless people there and I just couldn't figure out what was going on

It is funny how when you need something it appears. I was reading an issue of Time Magazine that had an article in it about a championship international chess match that was going on between Bobby Fischer,an American and Boris Spassky, a Russian. Bobby Fisher was using all kinds of psyching tactics on Spassky such as showing up late for matches or not showing up at all. He was driving Spassky crazy. I will never forget what Bobby Fischer said when asked why he was doing all of those things. Bobby Fischer said, "The object of chess is not just to win the game it is to totally break the other man's ego structure and have him crawling on all fours and slobbering." The 'light went on; and I realized that is what some of the people in the company wanted to do to me and I will bet you that is the same type of opponent that John McSweeney came up against.

Greg Newton
10-08-2011, 03:01 AM
Gordon,

It is all about control. Your recent thread about the games people play made a lot of sense. Especially the game - I got you, you son of a bitch. It is basically a power play where someone takes a perceived slight or wrong and uses it to unleash agression and anger on another person. It gives them a feeling of empowerment. I deal with two characters at work who try to do that to me all the time.

The first step is recognizing what is going on. The second is refusing to play the game. In other words not visibly getting upset or allowing the offered bait, usually some outrageous statement or implied insult, to engage you in an argument. As you said, anger is something that can be manipulated.

Defensive living has more to do with the total person - mind, body and spirit, than with just defending oneself against an attacker. McSweeney, unfortunately found this out with the guy who set him up. He was a type of predator who used manipulation to empower himself. It was a game. Manipulator/predator insults McSweeney's wife. McSweeney outraged, goes to predator's house and threatens him. Predator has surveillance cameras that record everything. Predator uses McSweeney's emotionaly black anger, something that McSweeney taught was an advantage in a life and death confrontation, and his sense of outraged honor against himself, and then played the legal system against McSweeney. McSweeney dies of a heart attack because of the stress and anger of being arrested and charged.

Predatory strategies run deep. It is more than just the Bully on the Beach in the Charles Atlas ads.

Greg

Andy62
10-08-2011, 11:31 AM
One of the things that I really had trouble understanding when I was first introduced to this concept is that some people continually try to make other people angry because making other people angry makes them feel superior. That was years ago and I have observed it in all kinds of human situtations since. "I got you you son of a bitch" is a favorite game of such people.

I had a friend of mine who was a brilliant Doctor and a nice guy. Unfortunately he married a woman who had psychological problems and kept trying to provoke anger in him. While they were watching TV or doing some other type of activity she would say "why are you angry". He would tell her that he wasn't angry. A little later she would again say "why are you angry" and he would again reply that he wasn't angry. This exchange kept repeating itself over and over until he finally was angry.

They went to therapy where the psychiatrist told them that she was doing this because she had a bad childhood with a lot of anger in it directed at her. On a subconscious level she was simply setting up situations that reinforced the role that she had been conditioned to play as a child. So many of fhe games of that type are simply reinforcing the roles learned in childhood. Unfortunately my friend,like McSweeney, died of a heart attack and I am sure it was due to the games that his wife played. He loved her and couldn't let go.

In the state where I live the assault law carries a penalty of 7 years in prison and it is strictly enforced. A woman that I know has a son who was out with his girlfriend when some guy started insulting the girlfriend. Eventually my friends son hit the guy who was continuing the insults There were no video cameras there,but the crowd was made up of friends of the guy who caused the trouble and blamed my friends son. He was found guilty and had to pay over $10,000 dollars in legal fees to keep out of jail.

Being able to keep your cool is an absolute survival skill.

Greg Newton
10-08-2011, 12:47 PM
Gordon,

I can't reinforce this enough. In another incarnation of this forum, we had some psuedo military and martial arts types who kept pronouncing the mantra "I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six." That is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard in my life.

Years ago as a rookie police officer we had a firearms instructor who used to say that, and I thought it was stupid back then; especially since we had legal guidelines, policies, and standard operating procedures we were to follow as police officers that were in place to make sure we didn't violate anyone's civil rights and that we protected ourselves.

Survival is survival whether in a hell hole of a back water Third World country, a corporate board room, or in a court of law. You train for it, you prepare for it, and you keep your eyes wide open to expect the unexpected.

Greg

Andy62
10-08-2011, 01:05 PM
This is a tricky world that we live in and there are all sorts of people out there will all sorts of motivations. Whether it is social, business , relationships, or whatever we have to be able to size things up and react accordingly. My experience has been more in line with the following quote than it has been with the macho types reciting their dominance mantras:

"Combat survivors, it turns out are more like Alan Alda playing Hawkeye, the mischievous, non- conforming surgeon in the M.A,S.H. televison series than they are like the movie character Rambo. The commanding officer of SEALS training at the Naval Special Warfare Center, for example, said in a magazine interview, 'The Rambo types are the first to go."

Al Siebert Ph.D
"The Survivor Personlity"

Larry Wick
10-09-2011, 08:25 PM
Hi All,

It is great to have you on the site Greg. Your wisdom an knowledge is right on. I have be traveling alot. Just got back from survivng the Rogue river. Facing death possible dealth lets you know you are still alive All the statements that were written on this thread are 100 perecent correct. It may not be the attacker that destroys you it may be the legal system. That is why I created the Professional Series of SSS. In the ten years that I have been working on SSS it has been constantly evolving. In the beginnning the concepts were rough in our standards of today. the understanding of Body Logic that continues to evolves and the ability to survive the most unsurvivable situations will change the self-defense world. My words to you will mean nothing as t what is taught must be felt. After talking to John recently I believe it is important for everyone ro learn these concepts. They are easy and deadly if needed, always dealing with weapons and mutliple attackers. SSS is nothing that has been done before. I like McSweeneys work, but the techniques and concepts do not fit in to the SSS concepts. I will be talking to John in the very near future and possibly we can put a weekend of Transformetrics, SSS, in to a seminar the public will never forget. To all be safe, and Greg, THANK YOU !!!! your friend Larry

Greg Newton
10-10-2011, 04:35 AM
Hi Larry,

Thank you for your kind words! I am looking forward to learning from and working with you and John in the future. Any seminar or public speaking engagement you are doing, please let me know so I can share the word on this site. You can PM me here, or send it to me at lionquestfitness@gmail.com and I'll make sure we get the word out.

Your friend,

Greg Newton