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Jesus, The Apostle Paul & "Scourging"
 
 
John Peterson John Peterson is offline
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06-06-2010, 05:13 PM
 
Hey Friends,

A guy that I have known for sometime was trying to tell me that Mel Gibson's "The Passion of The Christ" was far more brutal than what would have happened in reality. My response to this guy (and please note that I did not say friend) was what I am about to share with you right here.

Check this out (just scroll through the whole article) if you want to know how bad it truly was:http://naturesdesignsonline.com/Cat-of-nine-tails.htm

Bottom line: Roman scourging sometimes included "beating with rods". It was intended to be a horrific torture. A weak man could never survive it. And even the strongest of the strong would likely die of infection. After all, the Romans were not known for disinfecting their implements of torture.

Yet, consider what the Apostle Paul stated 2 Corinthians 11:

"What anyone else dares to boast about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. 22Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I. 23Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches."

Paul had to be one incredibly strong, fit, and tenacious man to experience all of that and live.

---John Peterson
 
 
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MikeNY MikeNY is offline
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06-06-2010, 06:31 PM
 
John I am a Roman and shamed they beat our Lord! But the scenes in the Passion of the Christ were toned down for our modern sensibilities; and the beating they gave our Lord would be much, much more extreme! Just the beating could kill if they desired that.

The Romans used the rod of iron to beat people, a 4 foot to 4.5 foot fighting staff used by the Romans, Greeks and some Middle Easterners. It is still used today, it is red oak and soaked in olive oil for years to become almost plastic and virtually unbreakable! The Romans supposedly used this fighting staff while running forward to strike or spring forward to strike; and it is reputted to have broken bones, cut to the bone if they desired that! My uncle told me that this fighting staff can break the neck or back of an ox or bull! I believe that and it is a deadly weapon.

The Roman cat-of-nine-tails whip was a brutal tool, a heavy whip with nine tails to strike with, the Romans attached pieces of broken bone, shards of metal and lead weights to the ends of the whip that were used to strike. Those that think Jesus had it easy are fools and people should remember the Romans in those days were as cruel as Nazi's on steroids!

Jesus must have been a very strong man to just survive. The Romans were a cruel race of men, but then peasant farmer's like that lived very hard lives and were often brutal. Paul suffered extremely for his faith!
 
 
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Johnny Johnny is offline
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06-09-2010, 12:42 PM
 
If that guy would read the bible, he would know that the number of beatings and whippings that Jesus had to endure are all there...
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April April is offline
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06-10-2010, 10:34 AM
 
I would imagine that God gave him the grace and strength to endure it, as well, over and above his natural human powers of endurance and pain tolerance.

In the days ahead, many of us may experience a supernatural ability to endure hardship, as evil increases and life is not so convenient.

1 Peter 4:1 (New International Version)
1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin.
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April

"Aslan didn't tell Pole what would happen if she followed the signs. He simply told us what to do. This fellow might be the death of us if we loose him, but that doesn't let us off following Aslan's signs."
-Puddleglum, The Silver Chair, Book 4 in The Chronicles of Narnia, by C.S.Lewis
 
 
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Andy62 Andy62 is offline
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06-10-2010, 11:51 AM
 
I think that too often we forget the humaness in Jesus and just concentrate on his devine part. This is a shame because in my opinion he came to show us the potential strength in all of us. Before his crucifiction he said they are about to kill "the son of man" emphasizing that only the human part could be killed,but not he devine part. I think it is important to remember that we are first human and in this form we possess great potential strength and power because the kingdom of God exists within all of us. Jesus conditioned that human body through the power of prayer to endure the destiny that he knew was coming.
 
 
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April April is offline
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06-11-2010, 11:10 PM
 
Although I know John's point had more to do with fitness than death, I would like to address the death aspect of the passage quoted. Gordon, good observation that it was the "son of man" part that could be killed.

My opinion, though many may disagree, is that the modern gospel of prosperity and happiness is not the actual original Gospel. The original Gospel, as far as I can see, is the process by which God crucifies our old nature while resurrecting in its place His own nature, whereby changing us from "man" into full "sons of God". Our cross is meant to do none other than crucify the essential "us" - the core of who we are really are in our sinful inner old-nature man. God did not send Jesus in order to save the old sin-filled man; He sent Jesus to show us the path to true life: the crucification of our sin nature.

1 Corinthians 15 KJV
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

By modern standards (or any standards), Paul had a terrible life. Modern preachers would tell him he was doing something wrong because he wasn't having fun, because his life was hard, because he wasn't successful and rich in material goods. Paul died daily for the sake of the Gospel. He carried his cross and suffered for it. As his old nature was crucified day by day, his inner nature was being changed so that the essence of who he was was the same as the nature of God and Christ. The death of his old nature resulted in a legacy that untold millions have benefitted from in the last 2000 years.

The problem in the modern churches boils down to one thing: the cross is not being preached. We have prosperity, the rapture, name it and claim it, mixing the Law of Moses with Christianity, seeker-friendly churches with the superbowl and Starbucks, and a whole slew of other distractions/false doctrines, but because Christians are not being taught to carry their cross, and because they are choosing to live like the heathens around them, the Christian witness has been lost. It is the "all this and Jesus too" mentality, which ends up - in the end - being "all this" without Jesus, because God will not share His glory with another.

The church in general needs to get back to what it is all about. If you have had a nice life, congratulations. But most of the time I feel a lot more like Paul: I die daily. My exact circumstances may be different, but the result is the same.

Why am I saying all this? Because the Western church is not presenting a true picture of the Christian life. They are even exporting the prosperity doctrine to poverty stricken places like India. Ludicrous! In the perhaps very near future, when enemies rise up from within and from without, when the skyline of NYC is dotted with minarettes, then perhaps many Christians in the Western world will experience the very things Paul did in the passage John quoted (which is what many Chinese and Sudanese Christians already are experiencing) and will come to understand and identify with Paul in a much more personal way.

Sorry for my little rant, but sometimes I feel like such a misfit, and I think this is why. Church people like to show how perfect they are, and if you aren't perfect, then you are rejected. I am not perfect, but God is perfecting me little by little through the process of the death of the old man and the resurrection of His nature in its place. Someday everything will be okay. In the meantime, like Paul, I die daily.
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Wishing you well,
April

"Aslan didn't tell Pole what would happen if she followed the signs. He simply told us what to do. This fellow might be the death of us if we loose him, but that doesn't let us off following Aslan's signs."
-Puddleglum, The Silver Chair, Book 4 in The Chronicles of Narnia, by C.S.Lewis

Last edited by April; 06-11-2010 at 11:13 PM.
 
 
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Andy62 Andy62 is offline
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06-11-2010, 11:53 PM
 
I think that Jesus is telling people that they can go directly to God and they don't need a broker. Their contact with God doesn't have to be filtered through an institution where political and economic factors may come into play. What else could he mean when he says to go to your room and pray in private and God alone will hear you and answer your prayers in private. In the same breath he says that those who pray in public get their own reward which I interpret to mean that they are directing their prayers at getiing the approval of other people rather than directing them directly to God. The instiutional church that Jesus was dealing with was as corrupt as Hell. The earthly church is an institution of men and subject to all of our earthly motivations. Anybody who has been active in a church, and I have been active in a number of them over the years, has from time to time seen some very unChrist like behavior take place in them. I don't interpret Jesus' word as saying not to be active in a church,but rather to keep your own prayer line open with God so you can evaluate things on your own and if you find yourself in a "pecking order" that you disagree with go to God directly with the problem. "The kingdom of God is within" not i some organization
 
 
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Greg Newton Greg Newton is offline
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06-12-2010, 06:22 AM
 
Hey Andy,

Good post and Biblically based. We have an advocate with the Father through Jesus the son. Because of that we can go directly to the throne room of the Almighty. This is a PERSONAL relationship, not a god afar.

Thanks,

Greg
 
 
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Big Bear Big Bear is offline
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06-12-2010, 06:29 AM
 
Great post John!

You are so right about this.In later centuries,even 'lashed' at sea was no small thing and many,many died from it or never recovered.

April very good point and this is one that Orthodoxy brings up many times in the Philokalia.

Good points Gordon.

peace,
jason
 
 
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