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Obama-hating white supremacist terror plotter murdered by wife
 
 
Free Free is offline
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03-14-2009, 10:14 PM
 
Interesting post Alan, but unfortunately I can't agree with you. I don't condone what AIG or similar companies have done, but none of this represents true capitalism, which works very well, when government is not involved. Interesting, that if someone focuses on, say a race based criminal element in society, as a representation of that whole race, it is wrong to do so, but focusing on a few bad corporate apples, and extrapolating it to the millions of other companies, is quite a popular, and accepted thing to do right now.

Also, since you just seem to want to ignore the other side of wealth re-distribution, what has been promised to those voters who want other peoples money, and is carried out by the increases in taxes on the successful, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. You have articulately expressed an alternative perspective, however it is not one I can perceive as accurate in my experience.
 
 
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Alan_OldStudent Alan_OldStudent is offline
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03-14-2009, 10:48 PM
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post
Interesting post Alan, but unfortunately I can't agree with you. I don't condone what AIG or similar companies have done, but none of this represents true capitalism, which works very well, when government is not involved. Interesting, that if someone focuses on, say a race based criminal element in society, as a representation of that whole race, it is wrong to do so, but focusing on a few bad corporate apples, and extrapolating it to the millions of other companies, is quite a popular, and accepted thing to do right now.

Also, since you just seem to want to ignore the other side of wealth re-distribution, what has been promised to those voters who want other peoples money, and is carried out by the increases in taxes on the successful, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. You have articulately expressed an alternative perspective, however it is not one I can perceive as accurate in my experience.
Hi Free,

Thank you for your courteous response.

This just goes to show that intelligent and sincere people can have profound differences of opinion on such fundamental issues.

Thank you for considering my opinions and giving them a hearing.

Best regards,

Alan OldStudent
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03-15-2009, 08:05 AM
 
Thanks Alan, I appreciate your courtesy as well. Let me just say one more thing, that I wish I had articulated above. That is that Capitalism died long ago, and all these articles, and people who are arguing that Capitalism doesn't work, are arguing against a system that is something else entirely. I won't say what it is, because I don't want to get in to a semantics debate, and it probably can't be defined anyway, as it is really some sort of mutant hybrid.

The government has been pulling the wings off birds for years and years, and now people are saying birds can't fly... well why are they surprised. Government has always been the problem, and it always will be the problem. We are so far from what our founding fathers envisioned for this country, it is really tragic, to those of us who really love the USA.

Unfortunately, it has happened gradually, and the people have been changed, generation by generation along with the government. I look at some of these elected officials and scratch my head and really wonder how such people could get elected, but I think I understand now. They really do reflect the people, and the current state of this generation. I, along with others here, just happen to be in the minority, and it appears to be a one way flight.

Dang, Alan, you really have a way of sucking me back into these discussions!! I feel like an Alchoholic that has just fallen off the wagon.
 
 
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Alan_OldStudent Alan_OldStudent is offline
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03-15-2009, 02:05 PM
 
Hi Free,

You wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post
Thanks Alan, I appreciate your courtesy as well. Let me just say one more thing, that I wish I had articulated above. That is that Capitalism died long ago, and all these articles, and people who are arguing that Capitalism doesn't work, are arguing against a system that is something else entirely. ......

The government has been pulling the wings off birds for years and years, and now people are saying birds can't fly... well why are they surprised. Government has always been the problem, and it always will be the problem. ......
Yes, I gathered from other posts that you feel that there is a "pure" form of capitalism that existed but has become subverted through some slow process.

Would you please tell me where that pure form of capitalism existed? What does "pure" capitalism mean to you? Would I be correct in assuming your views are similar to Ayn Rand and perhaps the Libertarian Party?




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......We are so far from what our founding fathers envisioned for this country, it is really tragic, to those of us who really love the USA.
You know, Free, when the founding fathers started the United States, they actually scrapped the original plan, the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union of 1781, and replaced it with The Constitution of the United States of 1787.

We tend to concentrate on the ideals of the liberal ideals (in the 17th and 18th century meaning of the term) of the founding fathers, ideals derived from the Era of Enlightenment and the philosophies of John Locke and others.

However, there is far more to "what our founding fathers envisioned for this country" (to use your words) than this usual schoolbook narrative.

For example, the individual states under the original constitution of 1787:Moreover, the founding fathers, despite the misgivings of some of them, permitted the institution of slavery and profited from it. They ensured the political dominance of the slavocracy by apportioning extra representation to the slave-holding states with the so-called "Three-fifths compromise." The economic infrastructure of early America rested in large part on value extracted from slave labor. Much of the territory of the United States came about from genocidal campaigns against the aboriginal inhabitants.

So the vision of the founding fathers is not purely idealistic or entirely virtuous. It is much more human, much messier than that, and it has to be judged by the mores and practices of the time.

The progressive aspects of the founding fathers' vision need to be treasured and preserved, if expanded. The idea that the state should derive its legitimacy from the consent of the governed should be extended beyond 1787, as it has been, to include the right of women and minorities to vote. The right to freedom of conscience, religion, free speech, assembly, etc need to be defended.

And those aspects of the founding father's vision that legitimate slavery, wars of conquest to gain territory and empire (Indian wars, Mexican-American war, Spanish war, conquest of the Philippines, etc), "manifest destiny," and so on need to be abandoned.


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Dang, Alan, you really have a way of sucking me back into these discussions!! I feel like an Alchoholic that has just fallen off the wagon.
Look at it this way, Free,

Lots of people are reading this thread and thinking about these issues. Probably few of them agree 100% with what either one of us say. But they must find what we are saying interesting. It helps them, perhaps, clarify their own viewpoint.

You're doing an excellent job of expressing yourself and the issues as you see them. You're not fulminating, name-calling, red-baiting. Instead, you're doing your best to address the issues as objectively and respectfully as possible.

I can't believe that other readers are not benefiting from seeing what you, Gordon, MikeNY, I, and others think about these issues.


Regards,

Alan OldStudent
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03-15-2009, 06:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alan_OldStudent View Post
The progressive aspects of the founding fathers' vision need to be treasured and preserved, if expanded. The idea that the state should derive its legitimacy from the consent of the governed should be extended beyond 1787, as it has been, to include the right of women and minorities to vote. The right to freedom of conscience, religion, free speech, assembly, etc need to be defended.

And those aspects of the founding father's vision that legitimate slavery, wars of conquest to gain territory and empire (Indian wars, Mexican-American war, Spanish war, conquest of the Philippines, etc), "manifest destiny," and so on need to be abandoned.
Alan, this is well stated, and I agree wholeheartedly with it. I agree that there is probably a general concept of what the founding fathers wanted for this country, that seems to me is reflected most closely in the tenants of the Libertarian party, and, if I had to affiliate with any party, that would be my choice. Before you direct me to some dictionary definition of a "Libertarian" I will just say that I do not take on that label blindly either.

The same goes for Ayn Rand. I would say that on some levels, I do agree with much of what she puts forth, however, on other levels I disagree completely. In reading through the principals of Objectivism, I was struck by how logical, and intellectually based her principles were, and I would be interested in your views on them, since you certainly put a very high value on the development of a very logical and intellectual faculty.
 
 
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03-15-2009, 07:18 PM
 
Alan that was not under estimating what the Nazi Swine was planning, I was agreeing with you he was plotting a Terrorist Action; and agreeing with you and free about the wife too.

I might be mistaken but Jose Padilla is Hispanic not Black and I've seen his pictures in New Stories and magazines as well as the Internet, to me the vast majority of Hispanics are White, and there are Black and Mixed-Race Hispanics.

Your right there was slavery in the USA and some of the rich made money off of slavery, not all Southerner's owned slaves, most Southerner's were poor. If you read "Roll Jordan Roll" you see that the slaves were considered persons of value, unlike the poor workers in the South and North that were considered subhuman trash. Slavery did not end with the Civil War; Europeans were brought to the USA to work in Mines, Factories and fields. Workers were required to pay to live in Company Housing, shop in the Company owned Store and seek medical attention with the Company Medical Doctor. The US was not built on the backs of the slaves, they suffered but you have minimized the suffering they had and the wealth built on thier backs as they were exploitied in a slave like existiance enforced on European Workers that worked in the farm fields, Plantations, Mines, Factories as virtual slaves from the beginning of the USA.

I would not have known you were Mixed race Alan from the picture, I suspect you mean Mixed European. I consider myself Italian and am culturaly; but the family is mixed Southern European/Balkans and Middle Eastern and I look very ethnic and am mistaken for a Arab, Persian or Mexican. I was born a Second Class Citizen in New York. When I was a boy; Italians were not allowed to work on Wall Street or Major Corporations, nor live in Exclusive areas (with covenants in the deeds baring them from ownership) nor attend good Colleges and Universities, but Blacks always could from long before my Great Gandpa came to New York around 1880.

Last edited by MikeNY; 03-15-2009 at 09:11 PM.
 
 
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Alan_OldStudent Alan_OldStudent is offline
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03-16-2009, 12:50 AM
 
Hi Mike,

About Slavery
I do not wish to minimize the suffering of poor whites in the south during the 18th and 19th centuries.

But really, it was originally tobacco, indigo, and rice that were the mainstays of American agriculture, mostly slave labor and mostly in the south.

But then Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin in 1793. Cotton had been extremely expensive before this and suddenly became quite cheap. This, along with the invention of the spinning frame by Richard Arkwright in 1768 and Samuel Slater's establishment in 1790 of the Pawtucket, Rhode Island spinning mill, based on Arkwright's design, spurred the dramatic growth of cotton plantations, along with a huge increase in slavery. Cotton production and processing kicked off the industrial revolution and was a major factor in it.

As a matter of fact, southern plantations actually produced three quarters of the world's cotton in the years just before the American civil war. They used to brag about "King Cotton."

Although small landholders produced a part of the crop, it was really the huge cotton plantations in places like Mississippi and other southern states that enabled this incredible production and its resultant accumulation of wealth.

Really, slavery was a major source of capital accumulation until the civil war. Slavery-derived capital accumulation permitted the westward expansion, the railroads, the big financial houses of the north, and northern manufacturing, as well as the establishment of Monroe's federal bank and the retirement of the revolutionary war public debts.

About Jose Padilla
Jose Padilla is the son of Puerto Ricans, and as you know, many of them are of African-American descent. Hitler decreed the Japanese were "Honorary Aryans," and so you might want to consider Mr. Padilla to be an honorary white with the same amount of justification.

It's up to you to do so if you desire.

Here is his picture:




About My Ethnicity
I usually don't go into the subject of my ethnicity much. However, you seem to question my statement about being mixed race. So I offer this explanation. Perhaps it is of interest, perhaps not.

The European bearers of my surname have been here for 10 generations. The first to come here were a couple of brothers, stonemasons, from England, and they came in 1690 or thereabouts. They fought in every major war of this country, including the American Revolution of 1776.

My Black Seminole ancestry is a bit murkier. The Creek and Cherokee components probably have been here for 30,000 years. The African component has undoubtedly been here longer than the majority of European-American's ancestors. Exact records are difficult to come by. But I believe they were brought over early on and escaped into the Florida Everglades to become part of the indigenous bands.

My mother's father came from that Black Seminole branch. His father was a wealthy white man, and his mother was a poor Black Seminole. She definitely looked African-American. Thus, in the days when New York had legal definitions of a person's race, (where my grandfather had a business), he was legally defined as a "Negro" person, although he had an American-Indian appearance and his father's gray eyes. He sometimes could pass for white but did not feel right doing that. So he stopped trying, despite the economic and professional advantages being white would afford a man in the early 20th century. He was a lawyer, a businessman and entrepeneur, politically pretty left, and an accomplished classical, jazz, and ragtime piano player, had traveled the world, spoke four or five languages fluently, and had an amazing deep and resonant speaking voice.

His brother, my great uncle, was a well-known member of the African-American community in New Jersey. I visited him there, and he proudly took me around and introduced me to a lot of people in the community.

My mother's maternal side had pronounced African-American appearance and were from Louisiana and Texas. Their ethnic background is a bit mysterious, although certainly multiracial. They had been in Louisiana for perhaps centuries. My mother's grandmother was called "Mamman" by the family. She was from Louisiana. She looked very African-American and spoke Louisiana French Patois and English. She may have known Spanish too, but I don't recall now. I believe "Mamman" is a Patois term of honor for a family matriarch. When I met her, her hair was very white, pretty short, and very nappy.

My mother had straight black hair during most of her life until it became gray-white and she cut it. She had olive-colored skin, very dark brown eyes, and many thought she was either Mexican or Native American.

I came out with a light-olive complexion, and like you, most people assume I'm white when they first meet me. When I speak to Mexicans in Spanish, they are often puzzled, because my Spanish does not have an English-language accent and I'm fairly fluent. In fact, my Spanish accent sounds pretty Mexican. Yet I do not have that swarthy look that Mexicans call "Bronce." I have light-olive complexion, brown eyes, and a snow-white full beard.

So they always wonder where I'm from.

On occasion, people who hear me speak English detect a bit of a Spanish accent, but personally I don't see it. My English is much better than my Spanish.

I was born at the end of the last great depression and grew up in the 1940s and 1950s in an area heavily populated by Spanish speakers. I learned Spanish at quite a young age. Part of my family live in Mexico. Many of my cousins were born there and have Spanish as their first language. Most of the rest of us speak Spanish pretty passably as a second language.

I first became aware of being mixed race as a boy when a bunch of relatives from out of state visited our home during a Christmas holiday. Some of those relatives looked definitely African-American. The next-door neighbor boy, who had been my brother's best friend, told us he was not allowed to play with "your people." The next day, he hurled racebaiting words and a few stones across the fence at us, and my brother, an extremely peaceful person, lost his temper, vaulted the fence, and beat him up.

Before then, I did not think much about race. Since then, I've never really felt "white," although in terms of opportunity and social acceptance, I have certainly benefited from looking white.



So, MikeNY, I consider myself a full-blooded member of the human race, privileged to be a loyal citizen of the world, blessed with the advantage of being able to live on our beautiful mother earth, and proud to be a part of the American heritage and story.

Like you, MikeNY, my ancestors wandered out of the African alluvial plains around 160,000 years ago, crossed icy plains filled with glaciers, hunted mastedons and befriended horses, camels, cats, and dogs, created settlements by the sides of rivers and started what became world trade, invented agriculture and writing, wrote great books, sailed the world's oceans to unknown and terrifyingly strange lands though dreadfully afraid of unknown perils, crossed impossible mountain barriers, composed great literature and poetry to celebrate all that, and now have the capacity to either destroy the world or just perhaps, I hope, create it anew instead.

That, MikeNY, is my ethnicity and racial background, which I share with you.

Regards,

Alan OldStudent
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03-16-2009, 07:55 AM
 
Wow Alan!! That is quite a story. Just out of curiosity, are you a writer, or a teacher? What was, or is your profession? (if it is not too personal to ask). If you haven't, you really should write some books.
 
 
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03-16-2009, 09:01 AM
 
Free: Alan is a good writer, no doubt.

Dredging up the Nazi's considering the Japanese as honorary Aryan's is below you Alan.

Alan here is a picture of Jose Padilla both with and without turban and tan http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3D54%26um%3D1 Read that Jose Padilla is the son of Puerto Rican immigrants but although he gets a great tan he does appear White. My friend is a Seminole and has blonde hair. Not all Puerto Ricans are mixed race; some are Mestizo, White, Black and Mixed.

Alan when I was born in New York the nurse asked my mother if she should register my birth as a Negro like my father; or as White like mom; mother replied that Dad was Italian and the nurse said that was understood.

PS Alan noticed you don't dispute the facts of past discrimination, just avoided referrence. Smart.

Last edited by MikeNY; 03-16-2009 at 10:23 AM.
 
 
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03-16-2009, 10:28 AM
 
I enjoy high minded exchanges & believe that such point/counerpoint discussions should be extended into a book( ebook or printed). Most of us are prisoners of ideology & don't read the "other guys" . A Free/Alan book would be enlightening. The point/counerpoint format gets some radio/tv airtime but is highly constrained so a book would fill this gap.
A discussion of GOD may be the ultimate issue; I'd like to read a lively debate between Dennis Prager & Christopher Hinchens
 
 
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