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JoeJustice JoeJustice is offline
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11-29-2009, 02:12 PM
 
Thinking more about this, I don't think it works.

One exercise to the next isn't really a progression. Handstand push-ups aren't a progression of a standard push-up. A pike push-up is close to a handstand, but even still, it's not exactly the same thing. It's like saying a bent over row is a progression of a standing barbell curl. It's true that they use very similar muscle groups and there's a lot of carry over, but I don't really think they're a progression.

I'm a big believer in different exercises because they attack the muscles from different angles. In a Men's Health article I read awhile back they were talking about a tribe of native people in South America (I think) that were exceptional runners. The main thing they discovered was that they were primarily exceptional runners because they worked their legs a lot, not because they ran a lot. They went through the jungle, stooping and jumping from place to place, had to keep their balance and so forth, this developed their legs evenly instead of overly developing one muscle or on set of muscles.

I think that in general that's a really good way to look at training. Even if you can do handstand push-ups that's no reason to drop standard push-ups and the whole idea of a progression (in my mind at least) is being able to drop one thing for another.

-Joe

P.S. Thanks for the advice, Tom, I'm working on it.
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John Peterson John Peterson is offline
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11-29-2009, 07:27 PM
 
Hey Joe Justice,

That is one of the best posts that I have ever read. AND IT IS TRUE. Herschel Walker still performs 1,500 standard Push-Ups each day. Why? Because there simply is no exercise that is it's equivalent. Yes, there are ways to make the Push-Up more difficult but difficulty and enhanced benefit do not necessarily equate to being the same thing. Or in other words, just because something is more difficult does not mean it is superior or more beneficial. Great post.

---John Peterson
 
 
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A1C Evans A1C Evans is offline
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11-29-2009, 09:52 PM
 
Hi John and Joe, good points. Now that I think about it, it does seem like i was talking about replacing an exercise with a harder one but with what I was giving as an example, that really doesn't make sense. A handstand pushup does not work the same muscles as a regular pushup and certainly not in the same way. Although it is harder, it is a different exercise with different benefits, you are right.

i do think that getting better at something like the regular pushup will help you atleast prepare for the handstand pushup though, so in this way you can progress to more difficult exercises atleast. Would I want to just stop doing the military pushups once I can do handstand pushups? No, but what I was getting at is finding a way to make them challenging again on a rep for rep basis (with the intention to increase strength, not make it harder for the sake of making it harder). Maybe this is just the weight lifting mindset that im slipping into, similar to adding weight. The way I was thinking about it was in terms of being able to continually challenge the muscles with a greater load. With bodyweight though, you cant do that (well I guess you can add weight to your body with a vest or something but thats not what im talking about), you can however alter the leverage and position of your body to make the exercise "harder" but then you also change the dynamic of the exercise and work different muscles or atleast in a different way.

Ok so, for strength building purposes, i see the benefit of doing lots of different exercises but what do you do once you can do a lot of reps? Do you continue to do those reps for conditioning type work and then add something like high tension isometrics for the same motion to work the fast twitch fibers (maximum strength)? Say as an example you've gotten where you can do 100 straight military pushups. I wouldnt drop these but if you want to increase your brute strength in this motion and these muscles in a very similar way you could do a standing iso belt chest press for 6 seconds. Does this way of thinking make sense to you guys? This is more of what im trying to get at, offering the body progression in terms of endurance/conditioning (increasing reps) and brute strength (higher tension like when using isos).
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JoeJustice JoeJustice is offline
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11-29-2009, 10:52 PM
 
I like the idea Wackybaby threw out there with doing different but similar exercises back to back. Push-ups followed by Hindu Push-Ups followed by Close Grip Push-Ups. There is a point with where you get more into conditioning though, I think.

Okay so when I think of bodyweight progression I think more in terms of rep schemes. Let's say you can only do 10 military push-ups, doing 3 sets of 5 is a good place to start. Then you can progress by doing 3 sets of 8. You'll break through 10 pretty quickly. But then what do you do when you're getting 50+ reps? Or 100? Well, the time alone is going to make things limiting, but let's face one thing, if you can do 100 push-ups straight, you're going to be in pretty incredible shape.

How about time intervals? Okay, you can do 100 in 5 minutes, can you try to push that to 100 in 2 and a half minutes? Alternatively, how about 100 in 10 minutes, where you move continuously, not locking out at the top or bottom and moving slow? You'd have to be pretty crazy strong to do that. Still maybe we're talking about conditioning?

A1C, I think you've got a great idea with combining of isos. I think some of the best combinations of exercises are DSRs with bodyweight exercises; pre-exhaustion. It works just as well with isos. Do push-ups followed by 12 reps of DSR Chest presses, then immediately go back to push-ups and you'll really feel it in your chest. Repeat that for a few sets and your chest is going to be toasts.

-Joe
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A1C Evans A1C Evans is offline
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11-29-2009, 11:36 PM
 
Hey Joe, yeah to me doing sets of lots of different pushups back to back where you can do quite a few of each variation seems like conditioning but that is not a bad thing! I think this type of training is valuable. I like your idea of mixing DSR's with cals, but how do you do a DSR chest press? The comin at ya? or just pushing out against one hand or ive tried a variation where you bend at the hips and push down into your knees.

Would you do the same thing with isos going back and forth between them doing just 1 position each time?
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Last edited by A1C Evans; 11-29-2009 at 11:40 PM.
 
 
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A1C Evans A1C Evans is offline
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11-30-2009, 01:18 AM
 
this discussion made me think of something I have often questioned and now its stuck in my head and really bothering me. Joe you mentioned frying the chest. I know what you mean and ive felt it before, that burning and pumped feeling you get when you totally exhaust a muscle and it fills with lactic acid. Ive been wondering, is this beneficial? What type of benefit does this give us? DOes this make the muscle stronger, or weaker? Should we train this way some of the time, all the time?

I know from my experience, this feeling of frying the muscle can be achieved with multiple sets near or at failure and doing sets of decreasing resistance or reps, this could very easily be achieved doing what you state Joe, going back and forth between a set of cals and DSR or iso hold. This reminds me of how a bodybuilder will train not that its bad, where they focus on the pump and the burn in the muscles.

So my question is, does this type of training give certain benefits?

Sorry to change the nature of the thread but it was mine anyway so i feel ok about that :D
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The Saint The Saint is offline
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11-30-2009, 05:07 AM
 
Hi rep lunges!!! They hit all those muscles! Two days later I can't walk. If you want a tight ass & thighs they are the bomb.
 
 
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Viking Dan Viking Dan is offline
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11-30-2009, 06:03 PM
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A1C Evans View Post
...I like your idea of mixing DSR's with cals, but how do you do a DSR chest press? The comin at ya? or just pushing out against one hand or ive tried a variation where you bend at the hips and push down into your knees.
Or the Liederman Chest Press (Exercise 19---its in PYTP, too.)
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cliffa74 cliffa74 is offline
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11-30-2009, 06:41 PM
 
Tom's suggestion on muscle tension to help force yourself up is a great one.
However, I would be really, really careful holding your breathe during such an effort.
I have used a good Valsalva to pop myself up in a handstand pushup, and flipped back over with blood shot eyes and a throbbing headache that didn't fade for awhile.
You can have a chest full of air and control your exhale such that you practically holding your breathe,(but not) and I have suffered no ill effects from this.

Have fun,
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JoeJustice JoeJustice is offline
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11-30-2009, 10:23 PM
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking Dan View Post
Or the Liederman Chest Press (Exercise 19---its in PYTP, too.)
Yeah, that's what I meant by DSR Chest Press.

A1C,

I don't have a degree in physiology but my limited understand is that the lactic acid bath releases HGH and is also is a signs of micro damage needed to build muscle. Working through that pain is just part of damaging the muscle in order to have it rebuild stronger. It's where the whole "feel the burn" thing came from.

I think that along with the pump are real keys. If you just do arm circles for example you'll feel the burn in your arms, but it's not the same thing you get when you add resistance. With the resistance comes the pump. Lactic acid bath and the pump gets you results, methinks. And you get both through progressive resistance in some form or another.

Some of the best results I've had have been when I've done consistent low rep and high sets workouts along with the DSR/DVR/ISO pre-exhaustion. By that I mean usually 15-20 sets with little break in between, starting out with low reps. Alternate DSR/DVR/ISO. So, say we're going to do push-ups, 20 sets of 10. First set of 10 is going to be easy, but by the 20th set, it's tough. Now between sets alternate between 12 reps of DSR Pull Up And Overs, DSR Chest Press and DSR Overhead Extension. You'll feel that in your chest, triceps and shoulders by the time you're done.

-Joe

P.S. I like DSRs for this technique because the opposite muscle is going to be stronger, making DSRs really effective. With Push-Ups again, you have worked your triceps, so you biceps are going to be stronger and able to offer more and more resistance. I'm sure VRT works well for this as well, but I'm a fun of DSRs
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